121: $20M/Year in Online Sales & Lessons from Getting Sued by the FTC with Anik Singal

Today, I’m joined by Anik Singal, an author, speaker, and lifelong entrepreneur whose digital publishing businesses generate more than $20M per year in sales.

Anik made his first $1 million in online marketing while in college. From there, he scaled and failed, eventually hitting $10 million with his info product business.

Over nearly 20 years in marketing, Anik has helped to contribute more than $300 million in online sales and has been recognized by BusinessWeek as one of the Top 3 Best U.S. Entrepreneurs Under 25.

In today’s episode, you’ll hear about Anik’s experience building and scaling businesses. In addition to his successes, he will also share one of his most challenging moments as an entrepreneur – undergoing a grueling 18-month FTC investigation surrounding the nuances and intricate details of marketing claims. You’ll learn the lessons he learned from this experience and important steps every marketer should take to reduce risk, stay off the FTC’s radar, and create a better experience for your customers.

Inspiring Quotes

• “Marketing launches businesses. Operations will scale them.” – Anik Singal

• “There are very limited people in the world to employ who know how to run a $10 million info product.” – Anik Singal

• “If you’re struggling to scale, I can pretty much guarantee you the problem is not your traffic. It’s not your conversions. It’s not anything other than your offer.” – Anik Singal

• “When your offer is amazing, scale comes, and the rest falls in place.” – Anik Singal

• Anik’s first $1 million
• Making $35,000 in one check in college
• Going from making money to a real business
• Informed decision-making
• Scaling to 8-figures
• Going from $10M to $30M in 1.5 years
• Getting sued by the FTC
• How to stay off the FTC’s radar
• Removing risk from your marketing

Brad Weimert: Alex Singal, appreciate you sitting down, man.

Anik Singal: All right, man. I’m glad to be here.

Brad Weimert: Absolutely. It was a last-minute face-to-face, which is always my preference.

Anik Singal: Yeah. Yeah, I love this. I love this setup. It’s a creative and gave me ideas. I love it.

Brad Weimert: Good. So, Easy Pay Direct is sponsoring your event in two weeks in Tampa. So, this is timely.

Anik Singal: It’s not even two weeks. I don’t know. It’s like a week-and-a-half.

Brad Weimert: Oh, good God.

Anik Singal: Yeah, I know.

Brad Weimert: I want nothing more than to not be on the road anymore.

Anik Singal: I can imagine.

Brad Weimert: Yeah, but I will be there smiling, ready to help the crew with payment, yeah, which I know is a hot topic in that space.

Anik Singal: Yeah. Always.

Brad Weimert: So, you’ve been in the marketing world for 20-plus years. You’ve built a reputation because you’re good at it, a multi-eight-figure company, and you’ve gone through all of the perils of marketing online.

Anik Singal: I think I’m still going through them.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. Well, we both know you are because most recently you’ve had an FTC suit. So, I want to hit on that but the FTC suits are one of these things that we’re intimately tied into that because, historically, the first thing that happened with FTC suits was that they would suspend all assets. And part of that was they would come to the payment processor. And we were at the center of that. Thanks to, and I’ll go on this rant another time, but thanks to Response, who was a nine-figure real estate info product company, seminar company, they sued the FTC and One. And the result of that suit was that the FTC is no longer allowed to suspend all assets until proven guilty. The whole world, whole info marketing world should be thanking those guys every day. And then everybody needs to know that in this space.

Anik Singal: This is different than AMG Capital? Company One?

Brad Weimert: Yeah.

Anik Singal: Okay. All right. Because I know AMG Capital’s case was huge and really helped a lot too to kind of tame the aggressiveness I would say, but this is cool. Yeah. Well, if Response is watching, thank you.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. We’ll connect you later and you can thank them. So, we’ll talk about FTC but let’s start at the beginning. How’d you get into marketing? And what was your first million like?

Anik Singal: Man, you know what, so growing up, I don’t come from an entrepreneurial background. My parents aren’t entrepreneurs. My dad’s the exact opposite. He’s a nuclear mechanical engineer. So, here’s the funny story with him. I would say the most ironic story with my dad, and he’s a very inspiring person in my life, guided a lot of my ambitions. So, he grew up in a village with no electricity. So, he would study to become an engineer under candles and the street lamps like outside on the streets. So, his house had no electricity. There’s the irony of it. When he retired, he retired from the NRC, which is the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which oversees all the nuclear power plants in the country. And he was the head, head government appointed decision maker for two nuclear power plants that supplied electricity to like 10 million homes. Right?

So, I was like, what a cool… For me, it was always like his story, like what he did with our family from where he started to where we ended up in the US. I mean, I lived a very privileged life. I don’t have that, oh my God, I didn’t have a meal on the table story because of him. But I also, I don’t know, as a kid, I processed it as a very young kid. And so, it was like a burden to me too because I was like, “He brought our family up to a certain level. It’s my job now to take it to the next level.” Then growing up, I was just constantly looking for something and it was like I didn’t really like this picture. I was being sold off to go college, graduate, job, work, over time build some wealth.

And my best friend, I remember having a conversation with my best friend. This is like sixth or seventh grade. And this is when I think I officially said, “Hey, I’m going to start deviating my path.” Very young, he says to me, “Why do you work so hard in school? Why do you always study so hard and try to get good grades?” I’m like, well, because I want to do well and I want to be the best at this. And then he’s like, “Man, all I want, I want to get a B average. I want to grow up, get an average job. I want to get,” you know, this literally word for word what he said to me. He’s like, “I want to get a BMW, but not the highest level one. I’ll get the lowest level one. I have a nice decent house, three, four kids. That’s a good life.”

And as I’m talking to him, I remember as a kid, this is middle school. This is seventh grade. This is the first year of middle school and I’m looking at him like, “The hell is wrong with you?” I’m like I’m getting nauseous. That sounds like prison. That doesn’t sound like a good life. And until this day, by the way, here’s the irony of it. I love this guy. He goes on to become, he’s now the principal of an elementary school.

Brad Weimert: Oh, my God.

Anik Singal: He was like the total cartoon in school. Like, we’d still laugh about it. I’m like, I am not putting my kids in public school because of you because if they let people like you become the principal, I don’t know. But he’s a completely transformed person but he has exactly what he wanted. He has a great life. He has a nice house. He has three girls. He has a BMW. Not the highest or the middle. The lowest one. And he’s happy. He’s very happy. So, I’m like, “Hey, no judgment. Good for you. But it wasn’t my path.” So, I looked around at a young age in my community. And now I’m Indian and my background is Indian. Born, brought up in America. But I looked around my community.

I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a hospital or anywhere where there are a lot of doctors congregate, but like about 38% to 40% of doctors are Indian. So, that’s what we do, right? And my family has gone through generations. My parents’ generations were engineers. And then my older cousins, they were all doctors, and right now the new trend in our family is lawyers. But I looked around at that time in my community and I said, “Who’s got the nicest cars, the biggest houses, and gets the most respect?” It was doctors. So, ergo, I will be a doctor. That was my reason to become a doctor. And by the way, that’s a horrible reason.

Brad Weimert: That’s the worst.

Anik Singal: It’s like don’t become a doctor because of that.

Brad Weimert: So, quick interlude, my whole family is doctors. And my father, first him and his sister were the first to go to college in their world. And when I was eight, I was sitting in his study, and I grew up kind of upper middle class because he was a doctor, right? But Michigan doctors don’t make the same as like Miami doctors. No. Thank you, unions. But I’m sitting on the floor in a study, I remember vividly, and we’re talking about what I want to be when I grow up. And I said something about wanting to make money. And he goes, “Well, don’t be a doctor if you want to make money.”

Anik Singal: Yeah. I’ve got nothing but respect for doctors. Likewise, my life has been saved by them many times, and I’m so glad that there are doctors. I’m so glad I’m not one of them.

Brad Weimert: Well, you hit it on the head, though. If money is the driver, that’s the wrong reason to be a doctor. Yeah, the doctors and teachers, if you have a passion for the craft, f*cking pursue it. I love that.

Anik Singal: 100%. Yeah.

Brad Weimert: But if you want to make money, so how did you see? What was the first thing that you saw where you were like, “Doctor’s not the right path.”

Anik Singal: Oh, man. It was a little bit far into the whole picture. So, I studied my ass off through high school. I got the best SAT scores. I started studying for the SATs in sixth grade, thanks to my dad.

Brad Weimert: Good God.

Anik Singal: I took my first SAT in sixth grade, and then I studied it. I was in tutoring, so I used to go to tutoring at Sylvan Learning Center.

Brad Weimert: Okay. This is why 38% are doctors, f*cking Indian culture, man.

Anik Singal: I know. Well, my dad put me in Sylvan Learning Center and I would sit there as a sixth grader. He insisted. He fought with them to put me in the SAT prep class. So, I’m sitting at a table with three or four other 11th graders, I’m a sixth grader studying and I’m outscoring them, by the way.

Brad Weimert: Amazing.

Anik Singal: And so, I built my resume for going to college and getting to the best school. I got into an amazing program that’s not the college I wanted to go to. The program takes 60 people worldwide per year.

Brad Weimert: Wow.

Anik Singal: You are basically the child of the president of the university. It’s full scholarship. You get paid to go to school there and within the first year so I’m going into pre-med, freshman, college, undergrad. I’m getting recruited by Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, and all of them my freshman year to come to med school.

Brad Weimert: Damn.

Anik Singal: So, it’s like it’s a ticket. You cannot fail the program the way it’s made. You don’t fail. They carry you with you. You’re a part of the tide and you’re going to go straight to Ivy League for med school. So, I’m done. My parents don’t have to pay for college. I’m set. I’m going to go. I go through this. This program was so intense, by the way, that you have a six-week boot camp before college officially begins. And during that boot camp, you cannot leave campus. You have to be up at six in the morning. You cannot have anyone in your dorm room like they train you to be a college, like a studious college student. So, I’m like intensely in this. I’m already in.

A couple of weeks into my freshman year, I have to go to bio class. I wake up one morning and I just had fear sweep over me. And I just realized at that very moment I said, “Uh-oh, I’ve made the biggest mistake of my life.”

Brad Weimert: So, this is your father’s nightmare?

Anik Singal: Yeah. Well, actually, so that’s what I thought, right? And so, I dragged my feet. Now, I’m having health issues during this time, too, so I actually had to leave the first semester of freshman year, leave the first semester of sophomore year. So, I’m behind. I’m unhappy. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m in this program where there’s a lot of pressure and support, but you don’t go to this program and say, “Guys, I’m having some second thoughts.” There are second thoughts. You’re blessed. You’re moving forward. So, I told some of my close friends who are in the program too, sophomore year. So, I went through a whole year, okay, and I caught up on the credits I missed during summer. I’m up to speed.

Sophomore year, it’s like towards the, it’s the second semester. I’m in the library, I’m studying with one of my friends and I’m forever grateful to her. I don’t know what the hell I was doing. Maybe I was sighing and puffing and huffing. I don’t know what I was doing. She, in a very quiet library, gets up and she’s a very sweet person and she just goes, “That’s it. I’ve had it.” Takes my books, slams it shut, and says, “Go home right now. Talk to your parents. I can’t take it anymore. You’re miserable.” I was like, “What the hell did I do?”

Brad Weimert: Whoa.

Anik Singal: It was, literally, we weren’t talking. I don’t think I said anything but it gave me the courage. I got in the car, drove home 40 minutes away, and I saw my parents. I said, “I’m coming. I want to talk to you.” Man, I thought, please don’t be so upset because my parents are so proud. Like, their son was like the path that. And I sat down and I told them I’m not happy and my dad was like, “What do you want to do?” I said, “I want to completely switch universities. I want to go study business. I was a kid in third grade that had the lemonade stand. I mean, I was always trying to do something.” And my dad’s looking at me. I thought, “Here we go,” and he looks at me and he just goes, “It’s your life, I love you. I’ll support anything you want. I don’t agree, but you got my support. What do you want to do?”

So, I had to leave the full scholarship. I had to leave all that. Hop over to another university, enroll in business school. No guidance, no mentorship. Don’t anyone in my family know. The last businessman we had in my family was my mom’s father, my grandfather I barely knew. He passed away when I was like in kindergarten. So, I’m out on my own now. So, junior year I switched over universities, lost the full scholarships, and now my dad’s paying $20,000, $30,000 out of his pocket per year. And within two weeks of getting there, I’m in class and I’m like, “I hate this.” I’m like, “I don’t like this either. Sh*t, what did I just do?”

And so, I realized that day I went home and I said I was panicking. I’m like, “I’m going to be the hobo in my parents’ basement. What is going on with me?” And so, what is one superpower I have that I would encourage everybody to really, really, really try to embrace this is I always tell people I’m super reflective, highly reflective. I try not to be very emotional about decisions. And whenever I’m even in a heated environment, I try to step back. Right before we started this, I told you, “Hey, I’m going to be a little bit late. There’s an emergency.” Well, there’s some sh*t going down right now. Okay. And the best thing I can do is separate from it. And I’m not going to make a decision today. Guess what I find out, as you grow and you learn in time, this is one of those things, right? What is something you do different past a million? That you still apply urgency but you realize one thing, and that is that if you give something a little bit more time, it’s always a good thing.

Brad Weimert: And 80% of things resolve themselves.

Anik Singal: A lot of times, right?

Brad Weimert: A lot of times.

Anik Singal: A lot of times. So, one of my rules is I don’t respond to team requests and things until like 2 p.m. My first half a day is mine. And you know what I find? You figure sh*t out.

Brad Weimert: Yep.

Anik Singal: They don’t have to bother me. So, back at this point, I went into a reflective mode. So, I’m going to close the door, be in my room. And what I realize is my issue wasn’t as much as with the education or the classes. I was ready to go, man. I was like, “Put me in, coach.” I got my helmet on. I got my gear on. I want to play. I don’t want to learn how to play. I want to play. So, I went to Google and I typed in how to make money. And here’s what Google did. It auto-filled ‘online.’ And I said, “Sure, why the hell not?” And that led to an 18-month journey of going through all the envelope stuffing and all this bullsh*t. And back then, can you imagine Google had just launched. Facebook didn’t exist. Skype didn’t exist. I found a chat board called ABlake that I fell in love with where they taught you how to build info products and sell them on ClickBank.

Brad Weimert: Whoa.

Anik Singal: Now, me being a college kid, understanding the value of education and how much I was spending on textbooks, I was like, “Ah, education, high value, get it, can be sold. I understand this.” And that was where I started to learn about this world, and it took me forever. Like I said, 18 months of massive struggle before I finally dialed it in. And the first million, as you asked, came from me dialing in a few different offers, right? So, first thing I did is I started in consulting. I mean, I probably made my first couple hundred grand in that, which is, come on, back then, this is 20 years ago. College kid sitting in my dorm room. Holy sh*t.

Brad Weimert: Who’s buying consulting from a college kid in a dorm room?

Anik Singal: Yeah. It was SEO black hat sh*t, right?

Brad Weimert: Yeah. I get it.

Anik Singal: Things like how to spam the search engine.

Brad Weimert: I get it. Keyword stuffing when you could do that.

Anik Singal: Yeah, exactly. That’s what it was. It was a software that would output 10,000 pages to add to your site that would keyword stuff the sh*t and it would work like clients could get results.

Brad Weimert: Crazy. Yeah.

Anik Singal: And so, then I got so tired of doing client work because, gosh, it was overwhelming, man. Four clients a day come and paying me $500 each, $2,000 but I got to work like six hours. That sounds like I don’t want to do that. So, then I filmed myself doing the tasks, and I created a sweatshop in my apartment with four of my buddies. I bought four computer systems to print DVDs, to burn DVDs packaged together, and the UPS guy, USPS guy, the Postal Service guy would come and grab ten packages a day from my… And I’m making $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000 a month, I mean, a day selling these packages at $500.

Brad Weimert: Wow.

Anik Singal: And then someone told me, “Dude, why are you doing all this? Why don’t you just upload it on the internet, let people have access?” I’m like, “I don’t know technical stuff. How do you create a member’s area and all this?” This is a funny story. I never told this before. It’s not because I’ve hidden it but it just never come up. I find a developer on Freelancer. The dude was a – he’s a porn guy. He was like, he made membership sites for porn people.

Brad Weimert: Porn guy’s the best.

Anik Singal: Well, he knew what he’s doing.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. I mean, you know this. Porn is the edge of marketing.

Anik Singal: Yeah, it’s where all the sh*t comes from. Free trials and all this stuff.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. They figure out marketing before anybody else.

Anik Singal: Why? Because they can split-test something and validate it in one minute. That’s the volume of traffic they get.

Brad Weimert: Because the entire world wants it.

Anik Singal: Yeah.

Brad Weimert: For better or worse.

Anik Singal: So, he built me a member share. And all of a sudden now I could fire all my friends. I don’t have to have a sweatshop anymore. I could sell as many. Didn’t have a USPS guy. This is a really funny story. I get a call from my dad one day because I had built a small email list and I promoted a product from my buddy called, his name is Brad Cowan. He had software out there and I ended up promoting it to my list of 10,000 people. I made like $35,000 a commission. That was pretty cool. That was when my eyes were like, “Ooh, email plus affiliate marketing,” which 20 years later, I still teach. That was like printing money, man. That was just the easiest money I had made. Now, granted, it took time to build that list, so to be clear. But, Brad, it wasn’t about the money for me anymore. I didn’t give a sh*t.

Brad Weimert: It’s a game.

Anik Singal: These checks came in and I wasn’t even cashing it. So, a check came to my parents’ house. It would go to my parents’ house. I get a call. Again, I’m at a university 30, 35 minutes away. My dad’s like, “Come home right now.” I didn’t know if there was something with my mom or someone was sick or whatever. So, I rushed home and I get in and my dad is on the phone and he’s pissed. He looks pissed. He’s on the phone with some company called Kinetics or whatever. I hear him talking and what I hear he says, “Come,” like this. And I’m like, “Something’s going down.” And he’s yelling at the person on the phone and he’s like, “What do you do? What is this company?”

I’m like, “What’s going on?” He’s like, he swore up and down that I was doing something illegal, that I was selling drugs or whatever because he wanted to know why I got a $35,000 check. So, finally, the companies are like, “We can’t talk to you. We can’t tell you crap. Your name is not on the account. Blah, blah, blah.” So, he hangs up. I’m like, “Dad, hang up. Let me explain.” So, I like open my computer. I show him the pages. I show him like I sent an email and he didn’t understand any of this. So, he just looks at me and he goes, “So, you’re not doing anything illegal?” I said, “Dad, I’m not doing anything illegal. Relax.”

And I will never forget. Then he just sits back and he goes, “So, you’re making all this money like part-time in college right now, and it’s all legal?” I’m like, “Yeah.” Then he goes, “And you’re just getting started?” I said, “It looks like it.” And he leans back and he goes, “It’s not fair.” It was like the best moment. On one hand he goes, “This is crazy,” and then he’s like, “Okay, good for you.” And so, I made my first million by digitizing something I was consulting. And one of the things that, Brad, I continue to seek in my life consistently and it’s easier said than done is what Tiffany – Tiffany was telling her story yesterday on stage.

Brad Weimert: Tiffany High?

Anik Singal: Hi, Tiffany High. She was telling a story on stage where she said, she was like, “If you had told me I would be a real estate educator ten years ago, I’d be like, ‘What? No.’” These businesses that come out of organic demand are the best, right? So, for me, back then, the way I became a consultant for that black hat SEO was not because I decided one morning I woke up, it’s that, “I will be a consultant.” I was on this chat board helping people all the time. I’m sorry. They were helping me all the time. I got really good at the software just because I was trying to figure it out and had nothing better to do so people were asking questions about the software and I was like, “Hey, awesome. I get to help finally and give back to this place.” So, I’m answering questions. Next thing I know, someone reaches out and says, “Hey, can you help me with this?” “Sure.”

I helped him and they said, “Can you help my buddy? He’ll pay you.” “Okay. How much are you going to pay me?” “$500.” Takes me two hours to install the software and run it. $250 an hour for a broke college kid? I’m like, “All right, I’ll do it.” And so, next thing I know, he refers me, he refers me, he refers me. Now, I have a consulting practice, and then I’m like, “Well, I’m tired of doing this. I don’t want to do this so much. It’s boring. So, someone gives me the idea of like, “Why don’t you film it?” So, I filmed and I made ten courses. I have ten boxes in my dorm. I didn’t think it was going to work, honestly. I was like such a big difference between a consulting done for you and a box of videos. So, I was like, “I’ll throw this out. I have a small email list at this point of people that are interested.”

Brad Weimert: And what era is this? What time period?

Anik Singal: It’s 2004.

Brad Weimert: Yeah, right. So, for frame, for the people that aren’t our age, that period of time and you framed it a little bit, which is Facebook didn’t exist, right?

Anik Singal: I think at that point Facebook was finally just out.

Brad Weimert: No, ’06.

Anik Singal: Just out. Yeah.

Brad Weimert: No, started in ‘06.

Anik Singal: Oh, okay. Yes, so it didn’t. Okay.

Brad Weimert: So, didn’t exist at all. And more importantly, the tools to execute didn’t exist. So, if you wanted to build a website like, do you know Sam Bell?

Anik Singal: Yeah.

Brad Weimert: So, love Sam. So, Sam was my… I invested in this company, RealEstateInvestor.com in 2007, which is no longer, but I met Sam through that. And Sam was selling a product from stage, which was how to create a website.

Anik Singal: Okay.

Brad Weimert: It was like…

Anik Singal: And that would work. Yeah, I can see.

Brad Weimert: It was like the WordPress, install cPanel like, how do you get a website up and running. And nobody knew that. Like, it was a $2,000 course. How to build a website.

Anik Singal: Do you know the company Squarespace?

Brad Weimert: Oh, yeah.

Anik Singal: Okay. So, you want to hear a crazy story?

Brad Weimert: Yeah, totally.

Anik Singal: So, they started right below me in my dorm room, senior year. Anthony, Tony, the guy, the founder, he was in the same entrepreneurship program I was in, called Hinman CEOs, and he was creating this thing. And I was fascinated by him. By now, I had a community of affiliate marketers. So, I had a recurring continuity program. I was doing pretty well. I was doing, I mean, that senior year I was already past a million a year in revenue. So, I was like the poster child of their entrepreneurship training. So, I went to him and I wanted Squarespace. I thought, I’m being honest with you. It’s so funny. I thought I was the stupidest. I mean, what are you doing? It’s like stupid. Like, there’s Blogger and there’s like WordPress I think was already out, and there’s others like “Why are you wasting your time with this?”

I said, “I see a purpose for it for my affiliate marketer because I can auto-build sites for them and have stuff done.” So, I made him an offer. I mean, I walked in with swag for that offer. I made him a $100,000 cash offer. Okay. That’s pretty baller back in like 2004.

Brad Weimert: To buy the company?

Anik Singal: Yeah, just buy the company. I said, “You don’t know what you’re doing. All right? I’m going to do you a favor. I’ll give you $100,000 cash. Take this off your hands. I need you to stick around for six months until I find a developer.” And he considered it. He is like, “Well, I’m… Now, Anthony, Tony or Anthony, I don’t know how he goes by now, I can’t remember, but he was your tech entrepreneur. Like, he’s kind of quiet, edgy. He looked at me. I remember being in his dorm room. He showed me a demo, and he was like, “I don’t know. Let me think about it.” I’m like, “You stupid? There’s no thinking about it. I’m handing you $100,000 cash.” So, next day or day or two later, he turned me down and I’m glad he did. So, he went on to become a multi-billionaire, but that’s the era I come from, right?

Brad Weimert: Well, I wanted to set that stage because that’s a really important frame. And knowing when you’re figuring out marketing, the easiest way to success is not reinvent the wheel and just copy what somebody else did. Follow the f*cking plan but there wasn’t the plan then, right? Everybody’s trying to figure out marketing online and online was so new, and commerce was so new online that nobody knew what worked and what didn’t. So, you’re doing this through college, which is wild. You make your first million by senior year in college. At what point do you have some kind of formal business where it’s not just you in a dorm room selling sh*t?

Anik Singal: Okay. So, I graduate and I leave college. I don’t know what the hell to do with myself, so I just moved in my parents’ house. I didn’t know. I was speaking. I was traveling all the time.

Brad Weimert: Why would you do that?

Anik Singal: Well, because I just didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what to do.

Brad Weimert: Well, it sounds like you got a good support network with your pops.

Anik Singal: My parents are freaking awesome. So, I was on the road all the time. I didn’t have time to even like go look for a place and like, do I buy a place? Do I rent a place? I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, right? So, I just quick, quick like I just moved into their house as like a temporary solution. And then I needed like, I don’t know, I needed a couple of people to help me. And my first employee, if I told you I hired my first employee, you’re going to crack up. Okay? I don’t recommend anybody hire like this. It’s the worst way to hire. It worked out for me. I’m at one of my close friends’ house one night, Friday night. We’re drinking. We’re taking shots of whiskey. I have no idea why. It makes no sense.

But we were doing shots of Chivas Regal. No one takes shots of Chivas Regal. We were whatever, right? And there’s three of us. So, the other third guy I went to high school with, I know him. I wouldn’t say we’re like friend friends but I know him really well. He’s really close friends with my friend who are drinking. And at one point, I’m at this thing and I’m like drunk at this point, and I’m like, “Oh, man, I’m so overwhelmed. I don’t know what to do. I need help like I need someone to come and help me do this thing. My business is just exploding and I don’t know what to do. And at the same time, the guy across the other guy, the third guy is like, “Man, I’m home all day. I’m just like bored out of my mind. I need a job. I need something. My parents are threatening to kick me out of the house, and da, da, da, da.”

And my friend is sitting in the middle and he’s like, right? And I remember this. He goes, “You,” really drunk he goes, “You hire him and you go work for him.” And so, I’m like, “Okay.” And that’s it. That’s the conversation. Two days later, Monday morning, I just always get up late. Until today, I would love to get up late. I would work late at night and get up late. So, my mom comes to wake me up. Such a bad story. I’m like, “Making seven figures and my mom comes to wake me up from my room.” She’s like, “Hey, get up, get up. Someone’s at the door.” I’m like, “What do you mean?” She’s like, “Someone’s at the door. He’s asking for you.” “What are you talking about, mom?” She’s like, “Someone’s at the door. He’s got a suit on and stuff, and he’s asking for you.” I said, “All right.”

This is back 20 years ago when we would still like answer the door and not think that it’s like a serial murderer there to kill us. So, I go down. It’s freaking this guy, Andrew. I’m like, “Andrew, the hell are you doing here?” He’s got a suit on. He has a briefcase in his hand. And his like bottom lip quivers. He’s like, “You, you, you, you, you hired me.” “I hired you for what?” Now, you understand, I’ve known him since high school. The dude in high school, I was thoroughly convinced he was going to be the guy that did like the mass shootings. He used to wear a straight jacket. He was weird, long hair, strange guy. I made friends with him on purpose to make sure that some sh*t goes down, I don’t get it. We were really like we all used to keep him.

So, I’m like, “I did not hire you, dude. I don’t want you in my house or my basement working. I don’t know you like that,” but he’s like… So, I was like, “Alright. Fine. Get in here, Andrew.” So, he goes downstairs to where my office is set up and I’m like, “What the hell is in the briefcase?” He opened his briefcase. It was empty. There’s not one piece of paper in there.

Brad Weimert: I love it. Playing the part.

Anik Singal: And I’m like, “What the?” He’s like, “I don’t know, man. People bring briefcases. I brought a briefcase. Maybe you have sh*t to give me.” And I’m like, “We had an online business. I don’t have any paperwork.” So, that was my first employee. After that, a couple of weeks in, I’m like, “Sh*t, I don’t know what I’m doing,” and I don’t know who to ask. There’s no one in my family to help me with this. So, I go back to the university, go back to that program, Hinman. I’m like, “Guys, help.” And so, they’re like, “Oh, there’s an incubator here. Go join this incubator.” So, the incubator had a 1% selection rate. So, I applied. I got selected. Part of that, they give you an office on campus. They give you some guidance and leadership.

Now, what’s funny is the first thing they said is, “You need someone. Where’s your financial record?” So, I’m like, “I don’t know. I’ve got them somewhere.” They’re like, “Your books?” I’m like, “What the f*ck you’re talking about?” Now, here’s a weird thing. You know what my bachelor’s degree is in? Finance. Dude, it’s so sad. It is so sad. Right? So, anyways, so they’re like, “Well, there’s a guy here. He’s a CFO in a box. He works on a couple of companies in this let him bring. His name is Rich. Still until this day, he is my CFO and he’s not a CFO in a box. He’s my full-time guy. We’re going on probably 18 years now. But he comes up, say he’s going to work for me one day a week. And I’ll never forget this and he says he comes up, puts his laptop on his desk, and he’s like, “Hey, how do I log into your QuickBooks?” I’m like, “My what?” He’s like, “Your accounting system.”

Brad Weimert: Oh, my God, man.

Anik Singal: I’m like, “Accounting system?”

Brad Weimert: This is brutal.

Anik Singal: Yeah. And it is exactly what he said. He goes, “Do you have any kind of accounting system?” I’m like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. What do you want?” And he’s like, “This is not good,” and he goes, “Like, how do you keep track of payments you’ve made and money has come in?” And I’m like, “Oh, dude. Oh, say it like that. I got you, man. I know. I got it all.” You know what I did? I pulled out a hat in my office because I brought it for him. I have three boxes. Okay, dude? I gave him three boxes, and it was old-school dumb and dumber style frickin, “Paid Andrew $300,” on this date on one piece of paper, and everyone had a piece of paper, and they were in no order. And he’s looking at me and he’s like, “What the hell is this?” And I’m like, “It’s a record of everything I’ve paid.”

Brad Weimert: Oh, my God.

Anik Singal: And he’s like, “Dude, how have you done your taxes?” I’m like, “Well, I don’t know. My dad and the accountant did some sh*t last year and I paid my taxes. I paid a big amount.” And he goes, he literally just looks at me, he’s like, “Get out of my office.” He’s like, “I got work to do.” So, he cleans me up and gets it. So, it’s like that would be when I think when I officially first finally set up a business was when Rich came in because he was like, “Are you incorporated?” “No.” “Do you have any IN?” “What the hell is that?” “What’s your accounting system?” “I don’t know what you’re talking about.” So, he came in, he put all the structure in place, and that would be. So, that was in 2000. That was like early 2006 and that was when we officially became a business.

And after that, I mean, I had major health issues. I was in the hospital, I was in ICU, nearly died. I had so many ups and downs. But, yeah, man, it was a crazy story. You know, I’m not supposed to be. I didn’t have the makeup to be an entrepreneur but it also goes to tell you like how much do we today get fixated on these things, these details because we want all the T’s crossed and I’s dotted. What we realize is true entrepreneurship is just doing and creating that opportunity and that value. And I’m not downplaying the other stuff. You need the plans. You need the SOPs. You need the KPIs. You need all that. But that’s not what creates. That’s not what creates. I always tell people, this is what I tell my students and people in my mastermind. I say, “Marketing launches businesses. Operations will scale them.”

Brad Weimert: I love that.

Anik Singal: But an operation, great operations teams will not launch a business. The launching part needs to be done by a tornado and needs to be done by an entrepreneur who’s not going to worry about that sh*t.

Brad Weimert: Well, you have a, I mean, some of the takeaways with your history. When you look at your path, there was a very clear ecosystem of performance, preparation, and excellence that brought you to a point that allowed you to make choices.

Anik Singal: Yes.

Brad Weimert: And that’s also a tremendous failure point for entrepreneurs because many of them just try to execute. And you have to, you know, you were playing a different game, but it brought you to today, right? And the network that you had, what you kept coming back to was the network that you had, family or the incubator, right? The program that you were in.

Anik Singal: Always people.

Brad Weimert: All of the credibility from the prep and the hard work allowed you to have the ecosystem to ask questions when you were confused and didn’t know where you were going.

Anik Singal: Literally, that was the number. I have always been a problem solver through other people since day one. So, when someone said, “Film yourself doing the thing and record it and burn it on a DVD,” man, I did not know how to do that. There was a software called Screencast that had just come out. So, how did I discover that? I went to the forum and I asked and they told me about it. Now, I don’t know what the hell to do with it. So, I paid someone to spend some time and show me. In my school, I had a buddy who was technical. I said, “So, here’s $30. Show me how to use this thing.” So, he came in and he showed me how to use it and then burning a DVD. I don’t know how to burn a DVD, right? “Hey, here’s another $20. Show me to burn a damn DVD.”

Brad Weimert: Burning DVDs.

Anik Singal: Right? But along the way, it’s still until this day. Man, I don’t know. All right. Right now, we’re launching and I’m in the middle of building a tech company. And I have failed to build tech for 20 years now. I have burned. I actually have figured the exact number is around $12 million trying to build tech companies because I’m not technical, so I constantly keep looking for someone else to lead that and it just does not work. So, the current platform that I’m trying to build, I have to build it. This is like, no, this is needed. The market needs it. I want to build it. I got to build it. It’s a big opportunity. But we were really struggling. So, I hired a guy and I did it the old way and I hired him. It’s now been a year, a year ago, and he left, and I’m glad he did it for three or four months ago.

And again, I was left with a project that was only partially complete and not ready to go. And I’m like, “Here we go again.” I wasted about another $100,000. I say I got to stop doing it this way. So, what I did now is I got myself in there and I said, “I don’t need to code but I got to understand because if I don’t understand then they’re going to run circles around me.” So, now I’ve built a team around me. So, I have the team that’s doing, and I have three people here that I’ve hired that is paid hourly to consult. So, the team that’s doing doesn’t know what happened. They’ll talk to me. I’m like, “Oh, okay. Yeah, let me think about that when I get back.” I don’t know what they’re talking about, but I take that information and take it to these guys. I process and I come back.

So, I’m always from day one, from the smallest thing to now the biggest decisions that sometimes now I’m dealing with a decision that is multi-millions of dollars. I have to find a path to resolve something that could turn into a negative multi-millions or my best case scenario is I made whole. My worst-case scenario is I lose millions. But I’m not going to move fast. I’m going to collect my info. I’m going to talk to the right people. And I’m going to make an informed decision. Only once I feel like I’ve collected all the data points that I need. That’s not something I learned in the process of building. I was always like that, and I don’t care. I don’t need it to be my win. I don’t have an ego. I just want the right outcome. And if that’s because Brad gave me some advice, good.

Brad Weimert: Well, that self-awareness is usually developed over time through entrepreneurship. It’s uncommon to have it a different way. Yeah. I want to talk about both of those things. All right. So, we’ve got a backdrop of chaotic figuring out how to market.

Anik Singal: Yeah.

Brad Weimert: Hiring your first employee while hammered in the basement and now a fractional CFO tapping the resources that you had from a very deliberate structured upbringing. You most recently had a multi-eight-figure company that ran inadvertently headfirst into the FTC. Talk to me about the jump to the multi-eight-figure company, and first off like growing that. And what was the shift from your previous all of this stumbling to figure out the elements of life to then being able to scale to that point? Because I want to talk FTC because it’s really important to people.

Anik Singal: Yeah, yeah.

Brad Weimert: But first like what was the shift that you had?

Anik Singal: Oh, it was the hardest business to build. And many a time I think back to myself and I’m like the amount of time and energy we built put into building that business, how I put that same, the talent, the people talent, the time, the energy and all that, had I put that into a software business or, gosh, any other business, a real estate business, I mean, we would be worth probably $1 billion by now, right? But I chose to build a publishing company. And by publishing company, I mean, not just publishing my material, but publishing the material of other people, which was a blessing as well. So, I don’t mean to make it sound bad. I got connected to and I got a chance to work with Robert Kiyosaki, Daymond John, Les Brown, Bob Proctor, and all these people, and other marketers are great.

So, the basis of my business and decision was this: I got very good at marketing and selling information to a certain market. I could take my information and do very well with it. This is before I understood paid traffic well. And so, I had built this audience but I was only so many things I’m good at that I feel comfortable teaching and being the expert on. So, I was like, I’ve got this audience and they love me, they know my company, and they’re ready to buy more. What if I take Brad’s expertise and co-published with him, build a product based off his expertise, and I allow him to tap into my network? He doesn’t have the audience. I have the audience distribution channel. Boom, we make a deal.

So, I did a few of those. They did really, really well, and before I knew it, I was like, “Let’s become a publishing house.” And my assumption, which was a false assumption, was that, “Oh, here’s me doing 10 million a year now with my content, my info. I find five of me’s, I’m doing 50 million.” And although mathematically that’s very linear and makes sense, it just doesn’t play out that way because the problem with this business model is there are very limited people in the world to employ who know how to run a $10 million info product. And if they’re hard enough to find for one brand, how the hell are you going to find them for five or six or seven brands? Not to mention I’m selling really well because my hook, my topic, and all of that resonates.

The next person’s may or may not. And when I launch them, if they’re only a $2 million, $3 million brand, they’re pulling from my $10 million brand. So, my $10 million brand falls to 7 million and they become 3 million. We’re still doing 10 million. Like, that was the hardest thing to break through. And so, in 2020…

Brad Weimert: Here’s what I heard. I want to recap that and tell me if I’m right on this. But what I heard was the crux of the business model, one is operationally hiring the right people.

Anik Singal: 100%.

Brad Weimert: And just finding the right people to execute.

Anik Singal: Yes.

Brad Weimert: And the other was in the publishing world, in that industry, the marketing hook, the angle that you’re taking, the USP…

Anik Singal: It’s everything.

Brad Weimert: Is everything?

Anik Singal: It’s everything.

Brad Weimert: And so, because it’s such a challenge, when you find something, you catch fire.

Anik Singal: Yeah.

Brad Weimert: But it’s hard to find it.

Anik Singal: 100%. It takes more time. I was making a more general assumption that the funnel, the team, and the mechanisms are what are creating the success. And although they are very important, the offer is key. It starts with the offer, and the hook is a big part of the offer. So, if you don’t have that sexy offer, you can have all the mechanisms in place that you want. You’re just not going to go anywhere.

Brad Weimert: So, this is the lesson to like f*cking 99% of the audience is spend a disproportionate amount of time on your offer.

Anik Singal: Oh, my God.

Brad Weimert: And I can’t. I mean, you know this because it’s your whole world but the number of people, if we ask even our friend group like high-performing entrepreneurs, most of them will not give you a distilled, clear version of their USP. Most of them still stumble around what they do and how they do it.

Anik Singal: I have said the following many times and I believe this now, having been through it. So, if you’re struggling to scale, I can pretty much guarantee you the problem is not your traffic. It’s not your conversions. It’s not anything other than your offer. Because when your offer is amazing, scale comes. The rest falls in place. And I like to use an extreme example to make my point. It’s a super exaggerated example, but let’s just say I hold the solo license in the world to sell $300,000 Lamborghinis for $10,000. Certified valid, confirmed. Lamborghini has even said, “He got us. Dude’s legit.” So, I sell $300,000 Lamborghinis for $10,000. That’s my USP.

How much marketing, traffic generation, and copy, and funnels do you think I need to scale my business?

Brad Weimert: Zero.

Anik Singal: Zero. It’ll do it on its own. And so, it’s an extreme exaggerated example. Now, I also tell you this. So, I love Alex Hormozi’s book, $100 Million Offers. And I think the only thing I think is under-spoken about related to that book is how effing hard it is to deliver a $100 million offer creating, man, you and I can sit down. We can create the sexiest offers in the world. Here, Brad, I’ll create an offer. Zero. You know what? Process with us, we’ll pay you 2% of processing. No fees.

Brad Weimert: And this is the crux of information products. And this will lead us directly into FTC because you can promise the world but if you don’t f*cking deliver it, that’s a problem and you’re dead on. Right? It’s easy to say the words.

Anik Singal: But you got to back them up with it. And if you can, the beauty of the magic, those of you can do that…

Brad Weimert: Yeah.

Anik Singal: Then good luck in trying to manage the scale. It’s going to come on its own. And that has taken me 20 years to figure out. So, now where I sit in my business today, as I’m re-crafting, re-architecting, and building, I’m constantly analyzing the reaction of audience and people to my offer and to my presentation. And I’m not taking it personal. All I know is that if I’m not getting the response I want, my offer sucks. That’s okay. Fix it. Let’s continue to get to a place and to a point where it’s a no-brainer. I was at an event and I’ll keep names out just out of respect. I was at an event and I saw how they do things. And I learned by observing. I don’t learn by taking courses because I just have way too much ADD for that.

So, I’m watching and I start talking to the team members of this person, right? And respectfully, the person who’s running the event has told the team, “Hey, guys, open books on it. Go ahead and answer whatever questions.” And so, I’m seeing how they’re doing it. And also, I see one thing and I’m like, “Sh*t,” it unlocked for me this offer I have, which is a great offer, but it’s not selling well because it’s taking a little too much resistance to sell it. But I saw something here and I’m like, “Oh sh*t, bring this here, reposition here. I don’t have to change any of the deliverables. I have to reposition how it’s said.” And all of a sudden, it’s turning into an offer that people are like, “Hey, I want this.”

So, it’s a big, big key factor. So, going back to just wrap up the publishing house and the publishing business and I just did not understand that until I did and when I dialed. So, in 2020, our business starts to do really well as most people in the info world because we were already having a couple of rockets attached to our asses before COVID, but then COVID happens and like all info-marketing businesses took off. And so, we’re really exploding and, I mean, I have bags under my eyes. I may have a lot of money in the bank account, but I’m—

Brad Weimert: Driving.

Anik Singal: —miserable, man. So, I just said I had a lot of money though. So, I was like, “Screw this. I’m done. I’m changing my hiring.” So, I went out for 2 or 3 months, again, as I do, problem solve. How do I hire? What do I do? I hired the top experts to teach me how to hire, and I went and I just started boom, boom, boom poaching the creme de la creme. Right? I made them offers they couldn’t refuse. I charmed my way and I got them and there were big, big, big changes. I think that was finally when we unlock. We went from 10 million to 30 million in a year-and-a-half because of that. And in a way that I was pretty sane.

My wife gets pregnant. We’re going to have a kid. April 2022. My wife gives birth to our first baby girl and I’m in the middle of acquisition. I’m being acquired. I got a great acquisition offer and I was super happy to have it. I was like, it’s a great business, I love it. My right hand is ready to step up and be the CEO but I’m done, man. Twenty years of slogging at this. I want to do something different. I’m tired. Someone told me once, I wish I never heard this. My best friend told me this number. I hate him for it. He said, “The average entrepreneur’s life cycle is seven years in the business that they do it.” And I was like, “F you for saying that. You mess my head up.” Because I’ve been doing this for 20 years. So, like now all I want is out.

And again, nothing wrong with the business. I love the business. I love what we built. I just wanted to do something different. So, we dialed it in though. I was out for a month when my wife gave birth to our kid and the business was running. We were growing, scaling. We dialed in how to pick the right offers, how to find the right publishing people to publish with. We had the right team makeup, I had the right leadership in place. And so, I was like, “I can actually run this business now,” like we all dream, which is like by just advising my own team members. And I have this baby and I’m in the middle of this acquisition. The acquisition due diligence is complete. We’re good. It was actually our second.

The first acquisition, we were done and good. I walked away from it, March. I engaged a new one. This one’s moving super-fast. We’re through their due diligence as well. It’s end of April. I’m like, “Man, I really love being a dad. Like, I want to be present to this child. And so, I’m going to step down. I think my right hand…” Initially, the goal was we would do the transition of power at the time of acquisition. He would go on and continue being CEO post-acquisition. I would leave and I was like, “I don’t want to wait that long.”

Brad Weimert: Yep.

Anik Singal: I just let him shepherd this acquisition.

Brad Weimert: We know it’s coming.

Anik Singal: What’s that?

Brad Weimert: I said I know what’s coming.

Anik Singal: Dude, oh man, I hate reliving this sh*t every time I talk about it but you know what? I have to. I want people to understand this because this is how life can kick you in the balls, too, sometimes. And it just is part of being, part of what we do. Okay. So, that’s end of April. I make the decision. I tell my wife. I said, “Hey, first thing I do when I get back to work is I’m going to let Joe know that he’s CEO now. And I want to announce on my birthday.” My birthday’s June 14th. One of my biggest dreams was to sell my business before I turned 40. That was my 39th birthday. So, my 39th birthday I’m going to announce to the team. Every one of my team loves Joe so it would be a very welcome, celebrated message. I’m stepping out. He’s coming in.

So, I get back. I get back on May, early May 20th, May 20th whenever I get back from paternity leave. Three days later. Friday. FedEx package.

Brad Weimert: God.

Anik Singal: FedEx package from hell. Well, from the Federal Trade Commission. And I don’t mean any disrespect when I said that. I just mean it brought hell into my life. And I knew what it was and the minute I saw the front desk person walk in, my lawyer was dialing at the same time. And she’s walking and I was like, “That’s it,” because I understood I was in a risky space. I thought I had covered my ass. Dude, I’ve never been sued. I’ve never had a state AG look at me. I’ve never even got a call from a state AG. I don’t know what they are. I have never had an issue with a customer. I’ve had 250,000 customers since 2015, never had a single issue worldwide.

I just didn’t think I was the guy that needed to be taken. There’s a lot of other people. But the minute I opened that FedEx package to learn that there was a civil investigative document inside of it, the dream of selling the company, gone on the spot. I call the PE for a moment. Hey, just a little. I got an issue. I got to work through this, and I click. I’m like, “Okay. That’s done.” I’m not going to step down as CEO now. That would be a ***k move to, you know, and not that it wasn’t possible. Here I went from being able to spend all my time with my baby girl to now having to I was wartime CEO now trying to figure this out so it’s going to limit my time. Super, super, super tough, 18 months dealing with that.

Brad Weimert: So, tell me what that was. So, what was the issue with the FTC like just the black and white. What were you being pursued for?

Anik Singal: Things we said in our webinars that were against their rules.

Brad Weimert: And I want to clarify this because like the external world, if they see federal government suit, most of them condemn the business owner immediately.

Anik Singal: Immediately. Yeah.

Brad Weimert: And anybody that’s inside the world or interacts with the FTC knows that the FTC is the antithesis of what our government proceedings are supposed to be, which is they condemn you to guilt and tell you’re proven innocent, which is not how it’s supposed to work.

Anik Singal: Yeah. And so, I start by saying this, look, I continue even after having been through this process, I continue to be a supporter. I actually think their creation, their purpose is one I support. And most of the people that I have watched them take down, I’ve been on the sidelines really applauding. I don’t agree with some of the approach that they take. And I think being American…

Brad Weimert: That’s my issue.

Anik Singal: Yeah. Being American, I think, I’m okay to say that. I don’t agree with the how they do it. Definitely guilty before proven innocent. I mean, it’s like you just… Here’s the thing, right? So, I got a 32, 30. Here’s a part of what I don’t agree with. I got a 32, 33-page document with a massive list of stuff that, just so you know, it took us almost ten months to actually deliver, cost me millions of dollars in legal fees, discovery fees, forensic companies. I mean, it was detailed. No, it’s very difficult to deliver all that but you got to.

Brad Weimert: While running your business.

Anik Singal: While trying. Yeah.

Brad Weimert: Or trying to. Yeah.

Anik Singal: And while new dad, right? But we asked one simple question, and I wanted one answer. Why are you here? It’s not complaints like, guys, we get about 20 BBB complaints a year off of 20,000 transactions. And they’re all resolved. They’re all resolved. We have an A rating at the BBB. We have no issues with our merchant processors. We have a 0.8% chargeback rate. It’s below. It’s like 0.76% chargeback rate. We have a below 5% refund rate on literally 20 some thousand transactions a year, right? And we were working with two main merchant accounts and PayPal. We’ve been with the same ones forever. So, they love our business. We don’t round-robin merchant balance, this, that. We don’t do any of this nonsense.

In a $4 million facility that we built that I publicly talk about, I’m there every day. I’m not hiding. I don’t understand, like why are you here? And I don’t mean that disrespectfully. I just want to know like we’ll fix it. What’s up? Like, we’ll fix what’s wrong. This is too much like this is ridiculous. And the answer is, “We don’t have to tell you anything.” And I’m like, “Well, that seems a little bit unfair if you’re going to ask me for something that took me millions of dollars, ten months, and was the most intrusive thing that’s ever happened in my life, and all I’m asking is what got you here? I kind of feel like I would love some answers.” And so, they don’t and they don’t have to. And it is what it is. Okay, fine.

You got to look at what they ask you and what they say that’s the best clues you can get us to. So, if you look at the actual investigative document and they would quote things said in my webinars that sometimes I think I got excited because I love what I sell, and I said things and they would consider those claims. So, here’s the deal. The FTC, from what I was told by attorneys, right? Now, I’m not in the FTCs. I can’t back this, validate it, but I was told for years, and I built my company to protect, and it worked like I built my company around what I was told by – because I had a full-time paralegal in my business reviewing all the sales calls. I did about as much as I possibly could as I knew.

So, we were told, “Look, they’re complaint-driven.” They are there to protect the consumers. So, when consumers start complaining, they show up. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay.

Brad Weimert: Yeah, that is fair.

Anik Singal: Fair enough.

Brad Weimert: That’s what they should do.

Anik Singal: And I, even being in the industry, I’m like, “Hey, if I am selling a service or a product that is scamming people and people are profusely complaining, I deserve to go down.”

Brad Weimert: But it doesn’t seem like that’s how it works.

Anik Singal: That’s not. At least, not anymore. Now, it is about the letter of the law. So, you are there. These are the policies, the terms, and these are the things. And I’m going to be honest with you, man. I don’t think a lot of the attorneys who call themselves compliance attorneys really actually know. I have found maybe two or three at this point that really understand, seek the counsel of. And it took me being in the process, which is the worst way to learn to now be able to sit and say, “Okay. I can actually look at copy from the eyes of the FTC and say whether it’s compliant or not,” which is part of why this has become my mission now and going out and trying to help people and tell people.

But, yeah, it was words and things in the webinars. It was claims. It was implied claims. It was making people feel like they’re going to make a lot of money. And it was not having enough success stories to back up the typicality of those claims. That was really where they started. And then once they found out we had a telesales team, we were doing one-to-one sales, the case became all about that. And that’s a whole Supreme Court ruling, reason, Section 1319. Like, we can get into that, but.

Brad Weimert: Well, I want to talk about just some of the granular things that are takeaways. So, like if you’re marketing, period, but the more aggressive you are, the more relevant this becomes. And also, the larger your client base is, the more relevant this is, right? Because if you have a ton of clients, the 5% refunds is a big number. Not percentage-wise, but just human-wise. So, do you think that there’s a size at which you need to start paying more attention to the FTC?

Anik Singal: I thought. I don’t anymore, not after having worked with Greg, who’s my business partner in this and the attorney. I mean, he’s got a slew of cases, and we have found a lot. I’ve done my research on this of cases where the company was doing a million bucks a year, few hundred grand a year that get taken down. You know, there’s a big myth. And that’s the FTC keeps the money. A lot of people think that this is like a fundraising plan for the government, the evil administration. It’s not. They don’t keep the money. They actually had some big PR issue about this Greg was telling me years ago where they’ve become very good.

So, my fine ended up being $2.5 million. That 2.5 million will go back to the consumers. They don’t get to keep. So, they’re negative. They probably spent over a million bucks investigating me, maybe more, or maybe a million and a half, I have no idea. But they spent a lot of money so they don’t get to keep any of it. I’m sure they get a win on their, I’m sure there’s like other incentives for it, but they don’t get money, and so they don’t really care. If you’re breaking the rules, you’re breaking the rules. One of Greg’s clients had to settle for his watch. That was his settlement. He had a $30,000 or $35,000 watch. He sold it and gave it to them.

Brad Weimert: So, what do people need to know when they’re putting out marketing claims to stay off FTC’s radar?

Anik Singal: So, the number one entry right now they’re just really looking at is testimonials and endorsements. So, if you are using results-driven testimonials, you are inviting them. Greg said it best yesterday on stage when we started. He said, “If you want to know whether you are at risk of having them come through your door, proverbial door, not your physical door, go to your case studies and client results section of your copy.” And if you are giving testimonials that are specific results-driven so, “Hey, I took Brad’s course, made $32,000,” then you better, A, have a written release affidavit from that client, B, have substantiation of it just because I said I made $32,000. Now, you put that in your copy. It’s your claim. You need to substantiate it. So, you need to turn around and ask me to prove that I made $32,000, which is an uncomfortable conversation and all the more reason to not use results-driven and results-based testimonials but you need to have that.

And it made sense. I never understood why. I’m like, “What the heck, man? I’m taking their word for it. I took a screenshot out of a Facebook post they made in a public Facebook group.” Right? But the thing is, as long as it’s in a public area and it’s their post, it’s their claim, not mine. But the minute I take a screenshot of it and put it in my marketing, it’s my claim now and I got to substantiate it. Fair enough. The third rule is typicality. So, here’s the thing. If I have, you know, Greg gives this example of one of his cases where the company was using this case study, which was proven. They had all the substantiation, they had all the backing, they assigned release with this guy had made $1 million using their options trading program in 30 days. He made a million bucks in 30 days. So, now they’re out there talking about this and using this case study and testimonial.

And what they failed to also say is that the person began with $7 million of investable capital.

Brad Weimert: Not typical.

Anik Singal: Not typical. Most people get you $10,000, $20,000, $30,000, so the chance of them making a million is nil to none even if they follow to the T. So, the third rule is typicality and the first thing marketers say to typicality is they say, “Well, most people don’t actually do anything with the course.” So, the typical, okay, fine, you can be specific. You can say so as long as you change how you talk. If you say, “Hey, the average result of a customer who completes our blah, la, la, la, la, la, is…” But you’ve got to have an actual study done. You can’t be like, “I think it’s the, you know.” It’s got to be through surveys.

There’s a whole way and we highly recommend you get a third-party company, a lawyer or a legal firm to basically come in and certify that and say, “Yes, we’ve looked at the evidence and we believe that this is a typicality statement.” Then you can use results-driven testimonials that are substantiated and signed releases, but that are within around that typical number and not like… You can’t cherry-pick. This is what they say word-for-word what I picked up from Greg, they say, “You can’t cherry-pick your top and just use those.” And so, it creates a bad impression.

Brad Weimert: Well, there was a time with the FTC where you could say this is not a typical result, right? Result’s not typical and you would use your cherry-picked high-end result.

Anik Singal: Yeah. They changed those guidelines.

Brad Weimert: That’s no longer acceptable.

Anik Singal: They change. Now number four, the fourth rule of using testimonials is you still got to have the disclosures. I find the disclosures and disclaimers to be a really interesting conversation, which I don’t fully understand. So, I leave that to Greg. And that is I said it this way, I said, “You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t.” But I do get it, actually. It’s not that I don’t get it. So, here’s the thing that they’re trying to say. Like, just because you disclose, it doesn’t mean you can break the rules. So, the rule says the testimony has to be typical. You can’t use an atypical testimonial and then say it’s not typical and hence be okay. But if you use a typical testimonial, you still have to have a proximity, a disclosure within proximity of that testimonial.

Brad Weimert: Meaning that if you’re running a testimonial video right next to it while the testimonial is happening, the disclosure has to be visible there.

Anik Singal: Visible, not hidden, and maybe…

Brad Weimert: Can’t be a footnote.

Anik Singal: And if there is no visual, like if they can’t see a visual because it’s something that’s an audio, then it has an auditorily, you have to put a disclosure. So, itself doesn’t protect you but not having it hurts you. So, you still have to have it but that doesn’t nullify you from all the other rules. So, look, I mean, I’m doing presentations on this that are taking me three hours to get through, like the key things that you see but this, they have actually issued releases saying, “This is our focus area.” So, if you are using testimonials that are results-driven that are not typical, that’s going to be the door through which they enter. And that was with us as well. That was the first reach out was the first things they were asking about.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. Well, that’s great. I mean, those are good bullets for people in general. And like you said, there’s a whole industry around defending this and case law and the ever-changing industry in the landscape. But having a few bullets of this is how I can execute is kind of the point of sitting here, right? And it’s the point of like that’s an entry point for everybody to say, “This is what I should do.” Well, look, man, I know you’re pressed for time. We will talk more in a couple of weeks. Actually, ten days at your event. But where do you want point people? Where can people find out more about you?

Anik Singal: So, a couple places, right? So, number one is if you’re more curious about the guidelines, the FTC compliance, and protecting yourself, here’s what I tell people. And I want to be really clear about this because I’m getting a bit of a reaction from marketers, which I expected, but marketers are very extreme, right? So, it’s like I’m either holy hell not compliant or I’m holy hell compliant, and they’re scared sh*tless of the holy hell compliant because they’re convinced that being fully compliant means no sales. And I’m here to tell you, that’s not true. I’m running stuff now that Greg says is compliant, I’m good to go. And trust me, I have to be extra careful because I’m under a signed agreement now, also.

Brad Weimert: With the FTC?

Anik Singal: With the FTC, and it’s converting and I feel great about it. And I’m getting better customers. They’re spending more. So, I’m actually really happy. It’s really weird but like I choose compliant marketing regardless of my signed releases. But here’s what I tell people. There’s a bunch of other things. There’s the FCC, there’s class action lawsuits, there’s state AGS, there’s personal, there’s consumer lawsuits, contractual. There’s all these. So, as soon as you go into business, this is your risk and my encouragement to those who are watching is this: You are not going to go from here to here. You’re never going to be zero risk. And I’m just saying, can we work together? Can you educate, inform? Can we reduce, reduce, reduce, reduce? This portion of this risk, this portion is really easy. Some changes to privacy policy, some changed terms.

Brad Weimert: The bulk of it.

Anik Singal: Yeah. A big chunk of risk you can remove by just simple things that we can do. Now, that last 30% where we got to train your muscles to speak different, to talk different. Okay. Well, you don’t have to do it tomorrow. Let’s work on it one at a time. So, we have a podcast. We have a book. All of that is at DontSayThat.com. We have a free assessment service that people can check it all out. Go to DontSayThat.com. And I think what I say is just be open-minded. But first, you have to accept the fact that you need to be compliant and that you need to know the law. You need to understand it. It’s the biggest risk factor you have in your business. Not economic, not recession, not employees, not product, not customer.

Your biggest, happened to me. I lost a 40 million a year company. I lost a multi-decade million acquisition. Right? I lost the ability to have freedom in my life and to go be with my daughter. All because of one FedEx package from one agency. So, take it seriously, decide you want to do it, and then go get informed. And we’re here to help. That’s a big part of my mission now, DontSayThat.com. Now, if you’re listening and you’re like, “Dude, I don’t want to listen to all this bullsh*t like I don’t want all the negative crap. This gives me anxiety on it,” can you show me how you grew a business so fast that the FTC can care about you? Like, that’s cool. We can talk marketing if that’s what you want. Go to ExpertScale.com. So, there’s my community, I’ve got some courses, and I’m doing events now, for example, the event that you’ll be sponsoring. Thank you for that.

So, I would tell people like I got the stuff that makes you feel good and I got the stuff that won’t make you feel that great, but it’ll protect the sh*t out of you. I’ve got both sides, so ExpertScale.com or DontSayThat.com.

Brad Weimert: I love it, man. That’s awesome. Appreciate you carving out time.

Anik Singal: Thank you, man. Thanks for having me.