Alex Cattoni 0:00
Marketing used to be convince me from baseline that you’re the person I should buy from or the company I should buy from. Now it’s first, convince me from a place of distrust, because I don’t trust anybody, why I should even continue reading your and then you have to convince me why you’re the one I should buy from the linear funnel is dead. Someone clicks, they sign up, they then buy from me, and if they don’t buy from me in a certain number of days, because I can no longer optimize for that conversion, let’s say, through Facebook or whatever, that funnel is no longer converting.

Brad Weimert 0:36
Congrats on getting beyond a million. What got you here won’t always get you there. This is a podcast for entrepreneurs who want to reach beyond their seven figure business and scale to eight, nine and even 10 figures. I’m Brad weimert, and as the founder of easy pay direct I have had the privilege to work with more than 30,000 businesses, allowing me to see the data behind what some of the most successful companies on the planet are doing differently. Join me each week as I dig in with experts in sales, marketing, operations, technology and wealth building, and you’ll learn some of the specific tools, tactics and strategies that are working today in those multi million, eight, nine and 10 figure businesses, life can get exciting beyond a million. Alex cotoni, it is awesome to see you. It doesn’t happen enough, but thanks for showing up,

Alex Cattoni 1:20
Brad, I am so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah,

Brad Weimert 1:25
so I don’t even know how long I’ve known you. We met eons ago through marketing channels. Since then, you’ve lived a life of a copywriter and launched a company in 2019 called Copy posse that now has over a half a million people that listen to you on the edge of their seats to learn the tactics, tricks and lessons around copy and building businesses. Recently dubbed the marketer of the Year by Digital Marketer and you produced some great shit. I want to start with my sales background, which is direct sales, like I’m going to close you at the kitchen counter or it’s never going to happen. Kind of sales that led me to have tremendous respect for direct response, but sometimes direct response just seems super salesy. How do you handle that? And how do you make direct response marketing not be salesy and douchey?

Alex Cattoni 2:18
Great question. Yeah. So I discovered direct response marketing back when I was an intern at a company called Mindvalley. Many people have heard of it in the personal development world, and I think the thing that blew my mind was really this idea of, oh my gosh, you can write words on the internet and inspire people to take action and buy from you. But I also kind of came from this background of branding, because as as much as mine, Valley was a direct response marketing company, it was really heavily focused on on branding. And then when I started my freelance copywriting business in 2011 which would have been maybe just a couple years before you and I met, I did direct response marketing, and I loved it, but I did direct response marketing in a in an industry where direct response marketing was not very well received. It was personal development and so, and spirituality and so, what I sort of found, right? And it’s like,

Brad Weimert 3:07
okay, it’s like a very, very fluffy environment, fluffy situation, and you’re giving a hard call to action, yeah,

Alex Cattoni 3:14
exactly. And that’s what I realized, that like you, you can integrate these two ideas. I think, I think there’s a right way to do direct response. I think there’s a wrong way to do direct response. But at its core, I love direct response marketing. I mean, if you boil it down just to its classic definition, it’s you do something that that inspires or evokes a direct response, some sort of a call to action, whether it’s to click to sign up to buy, and there’s a way to do that in a way that doesn’t feel douchey. And I think that’s where, to me, brand storytelling and deeply understanding your audience comes in, not just for the sake of saying something to get a response, but saying something that’s actually building trust in the process. And I think that’s more important now than ever before. And what a lot of people have lost sight of in marketing is back in, you know, 2008 2009 it really did feel like you could say anything on the internet, and people would be like, Wow, this is incredible. They would trust you just because you were online. I mean, I remember literally thinking that, like, can anybody build a website? No, they must be really special, important people if they have a website. I remember having that thought. And the market was less savvy then, too, and so you were able to really track for this very short window of, hey, I’m going to write an ad or write a sales page, and if I don’t get a direct response within the first 24 hours, couple of days, then there’s no point in continuing that. Lead is dead to me. Now I think that’s changed so so much, and to me, I focus first on building building trust, so that even if someone doesn’t buy from me right away, it’s still direct response marketing. But I’m not making them feel like that’s the only option they can ever possibly take from me, and if they. Don’t you know, they’re dead to me, so to speak. Yeah, that’s

Brad Weimert 5:03
interesting. I mean, I think there’s no question that the, you know, there’s all sorts of data around the number of touches required to get a sale now, and the number of touches required to get a sale 20 years ago was like 13 or something. And today it’s like four, I don’t know, 45 like it’s crazy. It’s just significantly more points of influence have to happen. I kind of struggle with this idea of brand against testing conversion. And what I mean by that specifically is if you’re doing if you’re writing copy, and you’re doing it by the numbers. And I like to be, you know, I pride myself in being somebody that is very deliberate in his approach to things. So that means that I want to pay attention to metrics to track the objective reality of whether or not something was productive. Where is the line between the conversion numbers are better with direct response versus I want to stay true to my brand.

Alex Cattoni 6:01
Yeah, such a good question. So there’s this report that I recommend you and everyone listening read, published by Google. It’s called decoding decisions, making sense of the messy middle. And this whole report talks about exactly what you’re saying is there used to be these two very distinguishable content versus copy, branding versus direct response, we were able to go, okay, yes, I need to do both of those things in my business. But really direct response is where the sales happen. And what this report talks about is how, exactly what you were saying earlier, where it used to take, say, seven touch points or 13 touch points, or whatever the number was a decade ago for someone to make a decision that number is now for a cold lead between 20 and 50. And what’s really interesting is a lot of those touch points are zero click. A lot of those touch points are a video view or or someone you know scrolling through your feed on Instagram, and they’re not actually clicking on anything. And so what’s happening is it’s beginning. It’s getting significantly harder to track conversions in this isolated, direct response funnel. And so something that I talk about a lot is this idea that the linear funnel is dead, not dead like funnels don’t work anymore, but we can no longer treat it as this isolated. You know, someone clicks, they sign up, they then buy from me, and if they don’t buy from me in a certain number of days, because I can no longer optimize for that conversion, let’s say through Facebook or whatever, then I that that funnel is no longer converting what’s actually happening is someone clicks, they might sign up, then they’re interacting with you across a number of different platforms. And it’s becoming increasingly difficult to know, was it that sales page that converted them, or was it the fact that they watched a YouTube video, or they read a LinkedIn post, or they read an email of yours and then they went and bought. And attribution is incredibly difficult, and so what’s happening with this brand versus direct response conversation is, I think as marketers, we need to, like integrate them and go, it’s no longer one versus the other. It’s all part of this holistic approach. Because if you talk to any marketer who’s looking purely at just direct directly attributable, attributable. It’s hard word clicks to conversion. Most people will tell you that conversion rates are going down, but when you zoom out and you realize, like at the copy posse, my average customer, they took 44 days before they made a purchase with me, we were able to get that down to about 28 by doing some lower ticket stuff, because we’d never really done low ticket before, and that’s still almost a month that it takes for the average customer to purchase from me. And it’s easy to like, blame a funnel and say that’s no longer working, and throw in the towel. And so what I look at now is, what are the leading KPIs? What are the leading metrics? I can look at the micro conversions that actually dictate whether or not my marketing is performing, and those are often the less obvious, like sale conversions or landing page conversion rate, but instead looking at views, engagement, interaction, because that’s going to be an indicator of overall conversions.

Brad Weimert 9:20
So functionally, like lead scoring would be another way to look at that, right? So if you look at a CRM in, some of the some of the better CRMs off the shelf, like HubSpot is amazing at this, will feed that stuff in and say, Hey, we saw a view on social channel a, you know, we saw a comment on social channel B, and A, like on C and that all feeds into a lead scoring mechanism. How do you think about that? Or, I guess, how do you track that yourself inside of copy posse?

Alex Cattoni 9:49
No, it’s hard, you know, I think, I think tracking and attributions, attribution is one of the hardest things. We use, UTM parameters, Google Tag Manager that we pull in. Into a tool called seg metrics to try to get as close to appropriate attribution tracking, knowing that it, you know, there’s no way that it’s 100% accurate. What’s that that’s knowing that it’s wrong? Yeah, all this money to know that it’s wrong, but it gives you the ability to compare apples to apples, right? So that, I think for me, coming from a background of branding and direct response, and then like, who had never created a piece of content on social media until 2019 and then really going hard into organic being able to not just ignore, like for me, if my YouTube metrics are down, that’s an indicator that we’re not reaching as many people, and I know that that’s going to directly impact all of my conversions down the road. And so I used to not pay too much attention to that, and I think it is. You know, vanity metrics are one thing, but if you know that, say, YouTube or Instagram or LinkedIn is the primary source of your organic traffic, it’s worth paying attention to that. And then, of course, you know my strategy is, is to get as many people as possible on my email list, because that, to me, is the one way that I’m able to accurately track what’s happening with those leads and control

Brad Weimert 11:15
it right, and control the audience and conversation Exactly. Well, that brings me back to the same question, and I think I know the answer, and I think I heard it, but if you’re writing an email and you are very and you split and you are very clear, one email converts better, but is a little off brand. Do you pick the one that converts better, or do you pick the one that doesn’t convert as well, but is completely on brand?

Alex Cattoni 11:38
That’s a really good question. You know, I don’t send many off brand emails, but I when I say off brand, like, I sell hard in my emails, like I’m not afraid of making an offer. And I think there is a way to do it that is still on brand. And so to your point, I would like truly pick the more on brand email, not because of the conversions, but because of the importance of consistency. Right now, everyone is looking for a reason to count you out. I feel like marketing used to be convince me from baseline that you’re the person I should buy from, or the company I should buy from, and they’re, you know, comparing you against other options. Now it’s first, convince me from a place of distrust, because I don’t trust anybody, why I should even continue reading your shit. And then you have to convince me why you’re the one I should buy from. And so I do really feel there’s an importance right now in consistency of messaging and brand voice. Because even if it’s subconscious, even if I were to show you, for example, an email that I wrote, and I’m a copywriter, and I My brand is very sassy, I swear. I mean, my audience knows how I communicate. If I were to all of a sudden use chat, G, P, T to write me a sales email, whether or not my audience, or my entire audience, would be able to immediately pinpoint if that was written by me or not. I don’t think is the is the issue? I think what happens is when, over time, there’s a complete removal of a consistent voice, where even subconsciously, we’re learning not to trust certain things we read and see. And so to me, I would go with the brand play any like any day of the week. And you know, if it didn’t convert as well, I would put on my marketer brain and be like, What can we test and optimize? And optimize here to try to get it to convert better? Do better. Yeah, just just be better. Alex,

Brad Weimert 13:50
yep, I prevent myself from saying that to people quite often, but often I think it just do better, just be better.

Alex Cattoni 13:58
Isn’t that marketing, though, like, everyone always thinks marketing is like, everyone always looks at me and they’re like, You were market of the year. You must not make any marketing mistakes ever. It’s like, I’m some marketing Oracle, and I always know what’s gonna work. I’m like, oh my god, I do so much that doesn’t work. Like, that’s the whole point. You know, that

Brad Weimert 14:14
is the point. The point is always testing, right? And but that’s why i That’s why I think it’s a curious question, because sometimes the tests show you data that lead you to what objectively looks like success, but if it’s misaligned from the brand, is that really success, right?

Alex Cattoni 14:29
Or is it just short, a short term win, but you’re sacrificing any sort of long term you know, loyalty, trust, future conversions, upsells, repeat customers, all these other things that really, truly matter for long term growth. All right,

Brad Weimert 14:43
so another random question from an email marketing perspective, while we’re on it, long form versus short form in email specifically, is it better or more effective to write a long narrative email that covers handles objections, lays this all out, or is it more effective? To write a one sentence email, a seven word email that gets a response, great question.

Alex Cattoni 15:04
So my philosophy on this is that there’s pros and cons to both. I mean, you write a long email where you’re overcoming objections and you’re weaving this story and you’re presenting the offer, and then you get the click, your on site. Conversion rates are going to be way higher, right, than someone who is clicking on a blind hyperlink where you’re just saying, Oh my gosh. Have you seen this? You’ll never guess what happened next, whatever, right, a blind CTA is going to have high clicks in an email and lower on site conversion. And so the first thing I ask myself is, well, one What’s my goal with this? If I’m trying to re engage dead leads all day long, the one sentence email, if I’m trying to build trust and educate and create, you know, really create that gap between where my current audience is and where they need to be in order to believe that my offer that I’m going to be making in two to three days is the thing that can help them. I’m going to spend a bit more time educating and building up that trust so that the time I do drop my offer, they’re that much more likely to receive it, and believe it. And so I like to mix it up. You know, I have people complain that my emails are too long and unsubscribe. I have people email me being like, I love reading your emails. I feel like I’m talking to a friend and like they’re long, but I read them all. And so I think, like anything, mixing it up and knowing that different formats have different goals, and they also speak to different personality types and different types of of people, and in the way they make decisions, logical, emotional, right? There’s room for it all. Is

Brad Weimert 16:34
it better to write a long email or link out to a video that explains it all and has the same explanation

Alex Cattoni 16:39
on a sales page? Like another great question again, I think it, I think it speaks to the audience, right? Like, I think actually, my old answer would have said link to a video that explains it. And I do think there’s still a lot of, like, really amazing trust building that happens through video marketing. And I’m a huge fan of video, and this, it’s kind of this idea of the thing before the thing, right? Anytime I sell anything high ticket, I’m always asking myself, what’s the thing that I can do to build trust before I offer the thing, the big thing. And so that could be a video that could be a free challenge, that could be some sort of a live experience, a Q, a whatever. With that being said, you’re going to have way higher consumption with something right there in the inbox, right it’s zero click. You’re getting the message across. So again, my answer would be, how do you do both? So as an example, I just did a master class in at the top of the year, and like any master class, you know, I think I had 8000 people sign up, had a pretty decent show up rate, like 30% but immediately my brain is going to these, you know, 70% of people who weren’t on the master class. And I’m like, These people aren’t going to watch a replay, like, Hey, watch this two hour replay. So what I did is I chopped up the master class into short chapters, and I trickled them out over email after the fact. So there was no Hey, 48 hour replay you have to, you know, take two hours and then maybe more with time in between. And if you’re pausing to take notes, etc, to sit down and watch this master class who’s going to do that? Very few people now take the time. And I see the metrics. I track the replay rates in my paid memberships in communities. If someone who’s paying me 10 grand a year isn’t watching a replay, what’s the likelihood that someone who signed up for free is going to give me their time? And so I think about, okay, how can I take all the lessons that I shared in this longer piece of content that 30% of the people on the sub list watch and dissect it into different formats that other people are going to consume in different ways to get the point across. And so I really do feel like it’s, again, that kind of holistic. How can you think about what every single person in your audience needs and what’s best for them, and know that it’s going to be different, but you can reflect that in your messaging and marketing. Yeah,

Brad Weimert 19:04
I like that a lot. And I think that the you know, thinking about what the actual outcome is that you’re after is super relevant, right? There’s a question of with, like, a two hour block, if you, if you back out and you look at sort of the old infomercial model. Basically, you’ve got a 30 minute block and you’re telling the same story three times in a row. And that was the infomercial model. And it was the model because they knew that you people would happen to jump into the infomercial at different points, right? It’s like you flip channels and you catch it 20% of the way through. Well, you need to tell the full narrative again. And if you’re in a situation where, in your case, you have a two hour webinar and you want people to have all the information from it, but they’re not going to watch it all in one sitting, well, how do you get that to them? Yeah, and your answer is drip, which I like,

Alex Cattoni 19:54
yeah, and I love my my friend Steve McLaren shares like I am. Always like, what’s your format for creating. Content. He’s like, tell him what you’re gonna tell him, tell him, and then tell him what you told him. And I do think we have a tendency right now to over complicate we’ve been told, and I’ll take responsibility for this like we’ve been told that you have to give value, value, value, value. And I think the biggest thing we can do right now as leaders and as marketers and as business owners is know that everyone is experiencing major information overload right now, and what is so much more important than content, which, by the way, is now completely free and essentially valueless because anybody can go create quote, unquote content using AI. What people are craving is leadership, guidance. They’re craving being spoken to like a real human. They’re craving connection. And so some of the changes that I’m making in my marketing and in my programs is being like, why do I do a one hour session with my mastermind members every single week and feel this pressure to have to bring in these experts and do a full blown training with slides and all of this. And I thought, Well, wait a second, what if we did half as much content every month and instead created twice as much connection? And the feedback we’re getting is like, Oh my God, this. I didn’t even know this is what I needed. You don’t have to watch four hours of replays this month in order to feel like you’re keeping up. Because what happens when people don’t keep up in paid memberships and communities, they cancel. So instead, it’s like, hey, there’s only two sessions all month that are recorded. And I now have a one hour max rule, which is hard for me, because I just have this desire to constantly give them more. So I have to catch myself and be like, Alex, you don’t have to give anything else. This is enough. One big idea is enough. And then we have one other call that is purely just connection, and it’s not recorded, because I’m like, the whole point is that we’re just chatting with friends. If you don’t want to show up live, you’re not going to get the same benefit from the replay. And then we’re integrating other ways for them to connect, not having to be on zoom in front of their computers, because we’re all fatigued by that. Yeah,

Brad Weimert 22:13
well, there are like 15 different elements of that that I want to talk about,

Alex Cattoni 22:17
but I just like rants. I’m like, Okay, your turn rat. I uh,

Brad Weimert 22:27
insert funny advertisement here, or just check out easy pay direct. It’s epd.com forward slash, bam, and you can find out about credit card processing for your business. Lots of our guests use us for credit card processing, and this seemed like more fun than writing a scripted ad to the content point specifically, or to education specifically. Yes, information is everywhere, but confidence, and you use the word leadership, but confidence that the information you’re getting is accurate and actionable is what’s difficult to come by right now and what’s challenging very, very smart people are good at taking complex topics and making them simple. Smart people are great at taking simple topics and making them complicated. And that’s a challenge, because there are tons of smart people out there that can’t simplify things, and they just over complicate. And it is not that you’re stupid, it is actually that you’re smart. It’s just like you can’t get quite to the level until you study, study, study, study, to distill, but that distillation is what gets people to follow you quickly and say, oh shit, I get it in the past, and actually, I’d love your feedback on this, like there is something to be said for the the sales pitch. Of, I’m going to explain to you how complicated this whole thing is, and then my CTA is, but I’ll do it for you. Don’t worry about it, right? Yeah, does that still make sense today from a marketing perspective? Or have we? Have we pass the point of, I’m going to tell you how complicated it is, because it’s so easy to go get information today,

Alex Cattoni 24:05
right? I mean, that’s a that’s a good question. I I do think that you want to be careful with not making something sound too complicated at the risk of someone just going, this is too much for me. I can’t handle this. I’m out. Yeah, exactly. And so I think, I think, to your point right now, what I’m seeing is more so now than ever. I’m seeing time almost match or pass the objection of money. And it’s simply this, like I am just so overloaded I cannot possibly dedicate time to this right now, and so I still do think what you’re saying absolutely is a strategy, and it needs to almost be rather than like, agitate with the complexity too much, because I think everyone is already aware of especially now like you see. Everyone talking about how things are harder than they used to be. You can no longer, just like, you know, put up a video and run an ad and make all this money, I think. But I think the flip side of that is making someone feel really understood in their overwhelm and going, I get it like, I get why you’re frustrated with this. I get that you’re mistrusting the information you’re getting online. And of course, you are. In fact, it’s good that you are, it’s good that you’re smart. It’s good that you’re questioning everything, because there’s so many dupes and fakes and bots and bullshit out there. And so, you know, build authority. Build authority. Build authority. Here’s how I can help you. And you know what? To make it even better, I’m going to do it all for you. So not only can you trust knowing that you are in good hands with someone who has years of experience doing this, but you don’t even have to so much as whatever, right? So I think, I think the premise is still there. I think what’s changed is the nuance of the like, the empathy of really making people know that. One, we see that you’re overwhelmed. And two, it’s absolutely not your fault. In fact, you should be overwhelmed and validate those feelings that people are feeling, because everyone’s feeling the same right now. It’s, It’s bonkers,

Brad Weimert 26:12
yeah, it’s, I mean, overwhelm is, is an under understatement.

Alex Cattoni 26:17
Overwhelm is an understatement. Exactly, yeah, exactly. But to your point, when you talked about this idea of over complicating, it reminds me of a client that I used to write copy for in the numerology space. Like never thought I would be a numerologist, but the founder of the company is so freaking smart, and he was obsessed with the process and the calculations and what was happening behind the scenes with the technology of creating these hyper personalized readings. And I have this realization writing copy for numerology, that nobody gives a rat’s ass about the calculation or how the calculation works behind the scenes, or the technology that does it. They just want to know what the hell it means to be a life path to and I keep that in my mind all the time when I’m writing copy, because again, like you said, smart people tend to over complicate. And while I do think there’s a lot of power in like pulling back the curtain and letting people see into your process, and that’s something I really do believe in, it’s more from a place of transparency and authenticity. Then let me tell you every little nitty gritty detail that doesn’t actually matter what you care about is what this means for you.

Brad Weimert 27:29
Yep. Well, that’s the, you know, that’s the sales adage of sell now, explain later, yeah, and you will talk yourself out of a sale, just like you’ll talk yourself into one. I think I’m guilty of that. Yeah, everybody is guilty of

Alex Cattoni 27:43
that. And because someone asked a question, a very legitimate question about right, because they’re, they’re, they’re, they want to buy like people buy emotionally and they justify logically. I can, I can be talking to someone who asks a very left brain question, and I actually had to train my team, because they would answer all these super left brain questions in the Zoom chat, and then they’d be like, Alex, we didn’t have to send you any of the questions, because we answered them all. And it’s like, good job. And let me answer even the most mundane left brain question, because if someone’s asking, What time are the live calls every week. What they’re looking for is a reason to count you out. What they actually want to hear is everything is recorded. You can go at your own speed. In fact, you know Jenny from season three, she didn’t attend a single live call when she was in the launch pad program because she had a nine to five job, and she watched the replay, and she was actually the first person to finish the program, or so and so who’s in Australia and couldn’t make it because of the time zones, and realizing that the logical questions we have to almost fight the urge to answer and instead make it about them and why. It doesn’t matter you

Brad Weimert 28:55
got it in sales. Questions are not there to be answered. They’re there to understand the person and deliver the outcome that the person needs. Ooh, I like that. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a really, it’s a great it’s a very helpful narrative in life in general. But you have no obligation to answer the question being asked. What you should be doing is listening to what the question is to gain understanding of who that person is and hopefully deliver the outcome that they want or need. And if you’re, you know, egomaniacal or really, there’s some sneaky word that I’m missing right now. But if you’re deep, manipulative, manipulative, right then you can drive towards your own outcome. But the fact is, when you when somebody asks a question, it is a huge opportunity to think about where they’re coming from, and gain insight into who they are and what they want.

Alex Cattoni 29:43
Yeah, that’s so good. Do you ever ask now I’m interviewing you, but do you ever ask a question in response to a question to uncover more of why that’s important to them? Yeah,

Brad Weimert 29:54
you know, and I think that, I think in sales, that what separates, uh. Are good sales people from the rest is the ability to live in an uncomfortable space and make it comfortable. And so the first, the first obstacle you have as a salesperson is to figure out how to not respond to a question, or how to push a little bit harder in a moment when somebody said no, but it’s how to break the social norm that you’ve been brought up with and all of those, there are tons of these different little things that happen where it’s not normal when somebody says no to ask again, right? It’s not normal when somebody asks a question, to ignore the question, to not answer the question and ask another.

Alex Cattoni 30:36
Raised to be a good little girl who answers questions or a good little boy who answers questions?

Brad Weimert 30:40
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I think that the first thing you have to do is break that break that frame, and say it’s okay for me to not answer the question. That’s not what I’m here for. That makes me

Alex Cattoni 30:50
feel uncomfortable even thinking about that. But yeah, right.

Brad Weimert 30:53
And so I think in one way to do that is somebody asks you a question, and you sit and you ponder for a second. You’re like, huh, but instead of responding with the answer, you say, Well, let me ask you something. And then you ask them a question, and you didn’t give an answer, yeah, yeah, but you did acknowledge the question, and you did let them know that you had heard it and thought about it, and that that response is still responding to the question. It’s just not giving an answer

Alex Cattoni 31:20
that’s so good you have my gears turning like with every time, every time I do a Q and A call or whatever, I almost want to take myself through an exercise where it’s like, what’s the question behind the question? Or what’s the fear behind the question? Yeah, what are they actually concerned about? What? What is it that’s holding them back because it’s so easy to deflect with questions that seem hyper technical and, you know, left brain, and it’s not about that at all. Yeah, no.

Brad Weimert 31:45
And, and I think you brought it up, but, like, a lot of the time the answer the question isn’t what they’re after anyway, right? And it’s like, it’s in a lot of the time people are asking questions to, you know, like, we use the term buying question in sales, because the buying question indicates that that person is trying to get to the sale on their own right. They’re asking you questions that are relevant to the purchase, and if you see those, then it’s, how do you help them get the information they need, or help them get to that place where they’re going to be comfortable with the sale? And their independent question isn’t actually often what they need. What they need is a level of comfort, security, trust or further understanding, permission, right to buy. And how do you see that? So I think about this in terms of verbal sales all the time. How do you think about that stuff in terms of copy or in terms of scripting a message, yeah,

Alex Cattoni 32:41
it’s, it’s funny, because it’s, I talk about something, like, I have a something I call an objection, an objection killer roadmap, which is really kind of what you’re saying. It’s, it’s uncovering the objection behind the question. And then how can you frame it back to them in a way that is and like is answering the question, but it’s actually giving them what they need. And for example, putting it in an FAQ section on a sales page. You know, the FAQ sections on my sales page, they’re all just overcoming objections. And so if someone’s asking, What time are the live calls? You know, every week, I’m not just going to answer and say the live calls are at 8am Pacific Time or whatever. I’m going to reflect back a story of someone who couldn’t attend a single live call and still got the success they wanted, right? And so it is. It’s, it’s the same thing that what, like, what you’re talking about. It’s just in, it’s just in written format and and I think where I struggle is on this, like the voice to voice sales stuff, because in marketing, and it’s, I think I’m so natural at sales through words written, but then the second time on, like a webinar or a sales call, and someone asks me a question, it’s like, I forget everything I know about sales from a marketing perspective. And instead, I’m just like, okay, and I, you know, I tell them. And so it really is one in the same and and good marketing and good copywriting is conversational, and it is exactly what you’re talking about. And one of the things that really helped me kind of pivot this in a similar vein, is understanding what people want and then what they really want. And so if I do a survey, for example, and I asked someone what is, and I’m, you know, trying to get input into messaging and figuring out what the core desires are of my audience. I might say, like, why did you decide to join this program? Or why did you decide, or what, what would be a goal for you with this program? And you know, you hear the same answers, more money, more time, more freedom. That’s basically it. And I’ve started asking the question, what would that mean for you? Or what would that make possible for you? And that’s what that’s when you all of a sudden start to get those Oh, well, it would mean that I could quit the family business. Business, and, you know, like, stay at home with my kids, or it would mean that my parents would finally take me seriously. And I, you know, could prove to them that me leaving college and starting a business was the best thing I could have done. Or, you know, it would mean not having to go back to work after having a child. And that’s when you realize, like, Ah, it’s like, we all say the things because it’s easy. What do you want? More time, money, freedom, I know, but if you can get to the why is this important to you, or what would that make possible for you, and weave that into your messaging, then all of a sudden someone’s like, Oh, yeah. Like, that is relatable. That’s what I want. Yeah,

Brad Weimert 35:40
I love that. I think I mean nothing in life lives in a silo. And it reminds me that getting clarity around your objective and why you’re doing it and what it means to you is like, Yes, this is a very valuable copy and sales exercise and path, but for the love of God, you should ask yourself that too on a routine basis. You know, what does it mean to me? How does this change my life? Why am I doing it in the first place? Absolutely, and in the world of short attentions, it’s very easy to just drop everything and run in a direction really quick, without that clarity, and that clarity is the hard part, right?

Alex Cattoni 36:22
Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s the thing is, you know, we talked about earlier how, like, what you do to get to say seven figures is very different than what you do to get beyond that. Or, I think another way to say that is, like, the questions you’re asking yourself before you get to seven figures are very different than, like, for me, before I got to seven figures, it was like, How do I get seven figures? That was the question. And you could say that I was, I was, you know, seeking significance. I was seeking that I, like, proved to myself into an industry where I was behind the scenes for over a decade and always kind of had this seed of doubt, like, Could I actually, like, Can I do I know what I’m talking about, or am I just a fluke with you know, it’s not me, it’s the clients that I’m working with. I had a lot I felt like I had a lot to prove. And then now the questions I ask are, like, what’s the point of it all? Not to be like doom and gloom, but like, what do I really want? What do I want my week to look like? What do I want my schedule to look like? Do I really want to have 18 meetings in a week? Do I want to do more admin and less creative work? I mean, it’s really like about figuring out what you want and then building the systems and getting the support and and the right people in who can make sure that you’re not building this, you know, this castle that you never really wanted in the first place.

Brad Weimert 37:44
So this is a common I like to ask this question because people have different approaches to it, but there are sort of two schools of thought. One is get ulti ultimate clarity on your life’s purpose and mission and build it accordingly. And the other approach is just go fucking do something if you’re around and find out. Yeah, fuck around and find out. If you’re a brand new entrepreneur, what’s your advice? Fuck around

Alex Cattoni 38:11
and find out. Because here’s here’s the thing. My mission didn’t become clear to me until I fucked around, found out, got feedback, and was like, Oh, I struck a chord with people, you know, I knew I had a lot to say about marketing. It wasn’t until I did a video, or, no, it might have, might have been a live call with some of my students, and I kind of it just fell out of my mouth. I’m like, you know, I just want to, like, deductify the internet. And then everyone was like, Whoa, that’s it. That’s it. That’s your thing. And now that is my mission. And so, you know, coming from a personal development background, I used to go to all these networking events, and it would drive me freaking crazy, because with all these, like, holier than thou, you know people who would go up to you and be like, be like, Alex, what’s your purpose? And, like, honestly, back then, to pay my rent, yep, to not have to go get a regular job, you know, like, What do you mean? What’s my purpose? And so if you’re, if I’m waiting for, suddenly, my purpose and mission to, like, download in this, in this period of just complete inaction, because I haven’t gotten clarity yet, I’m never gonna go anywhere.

Brad Weimert 39:26
Yeah, I’m 100% with you on that. I also I laugh, because I’ve been in many of those rooms. And the irony of those things is that very often, the people that are doing that and pontificating on their life purpose don’t make any fucking money, aren’t making any impact and aren’t going anywhere. And they’re like, Yeah, but I live a peaceful life, but they’re actually a lot of them are in tremendous internal conflict because they’ve just been told that they need to do this to get to the place they want to go and make sure they live in alignment. But I very much believe that, and I believe that, you know you have to you. Have to be deep enough into something to really understand if you like it and if you’re good at it, and until you have enough exposure and enough reps, you won’t know that

Alex Cattoni 40:08
you won’t, you absolutely won’t. And my path has has changed directions so many times, and it will continue to change direction as I learn about myself. And I think that’s what business does. I mean. They say business isn’t personal. And yeah, okay, I get why people say that, but to me, it’s the most personal thing ever, because you will never learn more about yourself than starting a business or doing the thing that scares the crap out of you, and then getting that feedback, pivoting and going, okay, and then asking yourself, Is this actually what I want? And so, yeah, I think, you know, nobody’s perfect. I think a lot of times when people, you know, pride themselves on like, but I’m in my purpose, and I live a peaceful life, they might, they might feel that, if you make money, then all of a sudden, that that can’t coexist, and vice versa, you know, like, there’s this either or myth. It’s like, you know parts conflict, like you said, where you know i I’m the opposite, like I have to remind myself that I actually can rest and have a peaceful life and make money and get out of this, like I just have to always be working, like, that’s something I’m actively working against. One is not more like, you know, right or wrong than the other. We’re all just on this path. But one thing is for sure, if you’re if you don’t try, you’ll never find out.

Brad Weimert 41:21
Yeah, you have to put action in. I want to talk about something, but I also want to point out how much I appreciate your attempt to moderate the use of the word fuck and replacing it with freaking and other things.

Alex Cattoni 41:35
I’m like, yo. Brad, okay with me saying, fuck, I see fuck. So much I get a lot of people emailing me, it’s so versatile. Responding to my emails being like, the language I’m unfollowing you. It’s so unprofessional. And I’m like, Oh, please,

Brad Weimert 41:47
Fuck off. Fuck you. So speaking of crafting your day to day and your day to day changing all the time, are the robots coming to steal your job?

Alex Cattoni 42:01
Good question. Hey, listen, I think, I think there’s gonna always gonna be like, there’s no there’s no yes and or there’s no yes and no answer. It’s not black or white. I think, I think AI is incredible. I think AI can replace a lot of tasks. I know there’s a lot of fear right now, especially in the copywriting industry and the people that I coach and train that, oh, what’s the point? If AI can do it? It’s like, yeah, AI can do it, it can generate words. But as a copywriter, is that all you do generate words? No. And I think actually our whole conversation really highlighted that, like, we didn’t talk about my process for sitting down and like, finger tight, you know, two finger typing copy. We talked about what we think about. We talked about the psychology behind it. We talked about how to be more persuasive. We talked about how to communicate with empathy. And so while there are going to be, for sure, some copywriters who always have looked at copy as a way to make quick money, and then before AI would have realized it’s actually not an easy way to make money. It’s still a skill that takes time to learn. I think what’s happening is there’s just a shift happening where copywriting, and probably any functional area, needs to be redefined to say, yes, AI can generate words, but as a copywriter, that is such a small part of what I actually do. And right now, I do feel like there’s this crisis happening in the marketing world where there’s so many AI bros teaching other AI bros about how to use AI to, like, start a business overnight or to launch a new campaign overnight and make all this money. But what’s really happening is the internet is becoming flooded with a lot of just sort of generic water down, diluted messaging that doesn’t really have any emotion, heart, humor, humanity, power behind it, and that’s adding to this noise of people just wanting to shut down. So my philosophy is that there’s actually an ever rising premium on true messaging and copywriting that fosters connection, and that there will be a huge demand as businesses start to realize, oh, maybe AI is a cool tool, but it’s not the magic button that I thought it would be in terms of building trust with my audience, which is what we all need to be focusing on right now, if we are selling to humans, which I’m pretty sure we all are at this point in time.

Brad Weimert 44:32
So it’s 2025 what is something that people are doing with AI that they think is great, but is really a terrible mistake. I

Alex Cattoni 44:42
think it’s the hamster wheel of, oh my God. You know, I used to post on social media once a week, but now I could post on social media 500 times a week, and that must mean I’m gonna grow 500 times faster than everybody else. And the problem is, if everybody does that, it really, truly becomes a race to the bottom, because you’re like, crane it like creating like content marketing is no longer about who can create more content faster. I think it used to be, and I don’t want to say that it’s not important to to have frequency and consistency in what you do. But how do you instead, like, shift this mindset of, how do I create more content faster, to how do I create more connection with the right people? And that might mean actually posting less and so that’s what I’m playing around with this year, is like, I’m gonna, like, re evaluate my content marketing strategy that really did serve me well for years, and instead go, how do I simplify, but then go deeper and create more content that’s truly like from the heart, and not just again, that hamster wheel of more and more

Brad Weimert 45:50
and more, we are running out of time. I know you’ve got a tight schedule here. I’m gonna have to ask you 1000 questions on other things later, but we can come back. We can do a part two. I love it. While you’re talking about content creation and being thoughtful about it, you have a solid YouTube following, shorts, three minute videos, 10 minute videos, what do you find has the most engagement and what makes the most sense for

Alex Cattoni 46:19
you? I would say the longer form, like eight to 12 minutes, uh, 100% shorts are great for getting the like, getting attention, and it can be great in terms of feeding your channel, but if you want people to like the end goal, ultimately, I think about everything is, how do I get more people on my email list? People often aren’t going to watch a short and get enough value or connection where they’re then going to seek out a link to go join your email list, but they will watch an eight minute video and go, Oh my gosh. I feel like I know this person. I want to go get the free thing that they’re talking about. So I think long, longer form in terms of, like, eight to 12 minutes on YouTube is, is where it’s at.

Brad Weimert 47:01
Love it. Alex, it is awesome to get some time in. Next time you’re in Austin, let me know for sure we’ll do hopefully we’ll do round two in person. Can’t

Alex Cattoni 47:10
wait. Thank you so much, Brad, thank you

Brad Weimert 47:13
all right, that’s a wrap for this episode. I’m supposed to tell you that you should subscribe to the show and you should leave a review. I really want you to leave a review, though, because it makes, like, a radical difference in the algorithm and getting other people to be able to see the show. So can you please go leave a review? It’ll take you, like, 30 seconds. Also, if you want more episodes that are amazing, you can check out the full length video versions at beyond a million.com. Or youtube.com, forward slash at beyond a million, you won’t regret it. You.