00:00
Peter Shankman
Everyone is an expert at something. My goal is to make sure. Look, you’re going to get this email. It’s going to take you 7 seconds to read. Once you read it, you’re either going to reply or you’re going to delete it and you’re going to go on with your day. I will not take more than 20 seconds a day from you. But in those 20 seconds, you could wind up on the front page of the Wall street journal.

00:14
Brad Weimert
So you are literally rebuilding this thing.

00:17
Peter Shankman
Legally, I’m building something newer and better.

00:19
Brad Weimert
Of course.

00:23
Peter Shankman
All my screw ups in my life, everything I did wrong and everything I did right were both a product of my adhd. And all my success was because of my neurodiversity.

00:34
Brad Weimert
What you just described can work very well for an entrepreneur.

00:38
Peter Shankman
You hire people who love the roles that you have for them. When things are good, don’t always assume they’re gonna stay good. And number two, if you’re having a lot of fun and you’re at the point where you think, okay, it’s time for things to move on.

00:51
Brad Weimert
Congrats on getting beyond a million. What got you here won’t always get you there. This is a podcast for entrepreneurs who want to reach beyond their seven figure business and scale to eight, nine, and even ten figures. I’m Brad Weimert, and as the founder of Easy Pay Direct, I have had the privilege to work with more than 30,000 businesses, allowing me to see the data behind what some of the most successful companies on the planet are doing differently. Join me each week as I dig in with experts in sales, marketing, operations, technology and wealth building, and you’ll learn some of the specific tools, tactics, and strategies that are working today in those multi million, eight, nine, and ten figure businesses. Life can get exciting beyond a million. Peter Shankman, it is good to see you. Thank you so much for carving out time.

01:36
Peter Shankman
Good to be here, man. Good talking to you.

01:38
Brad Weimert
I knew you originally from Haro. Help a reporter out. I want to talk about your experience with that. And then kind of fast forward today because you’re doing a bunch of cool stuff today as well. But let’s start with kind of what brought you to creating that platform in the first place. What’s your background, and how did you get into entrepreneurship?

01:57
Peter Shankman
So I started my career, graduated Boston University with a journalism degree, and was pursuing photojournalism and fashion and portrait photography in California. When I lost my financial aid, the government sent me a letter, said, your parents make too much money. We’re taking away your financial aid. And I sent the government a letter, said, they do make too much money, but they keep it. And the government didn’t find that funny. So I moved back to New York City, where I was born and raised and was hanging out in the chat room. This is the mid nineties. For your younger audience, a chat room is like Twitter, but without the nazis. And it would take a lot longer. You type something, you’d go get a slice of pizza. You come back, someone type something back to you.

02:37
Peter Shankman
And that’s what we did in the nineties instead of dating. And I was hanging out in one of these chat rooms. Someone there said, hey, my company tried to build a newsroom. Why don’t you submit your resume? I said, sure. I have no experience. That’ll be great. And learned sarcasm doesn’t translate well on the Internet. And was hired to become one of the first founding editors of the America online newsroom. So back when AOL was the Internet, I launched it. I launched AOL News with, like, three or four other journalists. And we sort of made up everything as went along. It was a lot of fun. AOL had a mass layoff, their first ever mass layoff, and they lost about 90% of their content people. I was one of them, moved back to New York. So I take the second job at a magazine.

03:14
Peter Shankman
I’m an associate editor. Yeah, I’m expecting a site in this magazine, and they have 08:45 a.m. Meetings and 930 meetings and 1045 meetings. And I’m like, wow, this is not, this is nothing like AOL. At AOL, we could work any way we wanted as long as we got the job done. And they didn’t care. And all of a sudden I have to be here every second and sit in meetings. And I didn’t know I had an ADHD at the time. And I’m like, this is Russia. I can’t do this. And I quit. And I said, I got to go out on my own. And I had all this experience from the Internet working at AOL and how to create news and craft stories. I started a PR firm. My parents thought I was nuts. You have no experience.

03:47
Peter Shankman
You’ve never worked for anyone doing that. I’m like, yeah, sure, it’ll be fine. And launched a PR firm at the height of the.com boom. Started the.com called the geek factory. In like six months. We had like ten employees. We were repping Napster, Juno, AOL. I had no idea what I was doing, but all this money was flowing in, and we had a blast, and I wound up selling the agency right before the.com crash, I sold it to a larger agency, and I walked away. And that was my first sort of big lesson, which is when things are good, number one, don’t always assume they’re going to stay good. And number two, if you’re having a lot of fun and you’re at the point where you think, okay, it’s time for things to move on, that’s not necessarily always a bad thing. Right.

04:30
Peter Shankman
I know way too many people who spend all their time, okay, things are great, I’m going to stay right where I’m doing. I’m not going to change anything. And that tends to lead to complacency, which is your first step to failure. Don’t be afraid to basically walk away from the blackjack table when you’re up.

04:43
Brad Weimert
There’s a lot more in that relative to cycles, timing. Right now you look at copywriters, designers, etcetera, and there’s writing on the wall for it being the right time to move to something else. But there’s also just the notion of know you’re ahead and explore. Explore something else. What was it that made you want to transition?

05:03
Peter Shankman
That’s the thing also is that, you know, I’ve learned, and this is, again, before I got diagnosed, I learned very quickly that what I love, I’m really good at, and what I don’t love, I’m terrible at. That became sort of this sort of way to learn, okay, if I want to build this PR firm right now, I’m being offered a decent amount of money for it. I’m 28 years old. The time I could walk away with this cash and basically chill for at least three or four years if I want to and not have to worry.

05:28
Peter Shankman
But if I don’t want to do that and I want to grow it to, like, ten times the size of what it was, well, then I have to start hiring people and hiring not just PR people like myself, but I hr people, and we got to improve insurance, and we have to do this. And that didn’t sound like fun at all.

05:47
Brad Weimert
Yeah. Like, learn how to run a business.

05:48
Peter Shankman
Yeah, I don’t want to do that shit, so. Right. So I walked and I had a nice payout, and I walked away. I went to Asia. Problem was, I went to Asia. This is like 19. This is like 2001. I went to Asia. I’m like, I’m taking a year off. This is like June of 2001. And like, two weeks later, like mid July, I’m in Bangkok. And I realized I’m bored senseless. I called my mom. I said, I’m flying home. She’s like, why are you supposed to stay here? I’m like, you never taught me how to relax. It’s your fault. And I hung up the phone, but I came home and started consulting. And I was consulting for several years.

06:19
Peter Shankman
And a lot of that I was from that, I got a lot of keynote speaking, and a lot of doing all this stuff and all that stuff led to being on a plane all the time. And if you’re on a plane next to me, unless you fake your death, I’m going to know everything about you by the time we left.

06:32
Brad Weimert
Oh, God.

06:32
Peter Shankman
Right? I’m not gonna bother you, but I’m gonna let you talk. Right? Most people on planes are afraid the person next to them is gonna not. Is gonna talk their ear off. I don’t say a word. I’m gonna let you talk. Right? And if you don’t want it, that’s cool. But if you start talking, I’m just gonna let you keep talking. I’m gonna learn everything about you.

06:47
Brad Weimert
How do you engage that?

06:49
Peter Shankman
Where you headed? What takes you there? Work. Cool. What do you do? At no point do I say, yeah, I’m going there for work. I do this. This is me. I have a dog, I have a kidde. I say, ask questions. We live in a world where the majority of people meet someone and they get quiet while the other person is talking, not because they’re interested, but because they’re waiting for the other person to shut up so they can start talking. And I always find that fascinating, because if you simply talk and let someone else talk and actually take an interest in what they’re saying, they’re so starved for that they’re just going to talk to you. And I’ve had six hour conversations where I’ve said maybe 15 words, and I let them do the talking.

07:23
Peter Shankman
And the cool thing about that is I built this incredible rolodex. You know, I know the guy who makes 97% of the shoelaces in the United States, right? I know. It’s random people. I met a guy with the exact same name as me on a flight once, which is really weird. The flight attendant came over both the first class flights. Mister Shankman was like, yes. We’re like, don’t be a dick. He’s like, peter Shankman. We’re both like, yes. Ha. Don’t be a dick. You’re kidding. There’s another Peter Shankman. Out there. So it’s those sort of random, you know, things that happen when you just shut up and let other people talk. And so I built this huge Rolodex and I was still doing some pr and consulting, whatever, and reporters knew that.

07:59
Peter Shankman
I knew a lot of people because reporters start calling and they, oh, yeah, I got your name from someone at the times. I’m doing a story on blah, blah. I worked for the Post who, you know, who does it. And over time I realized there’s got to be a better way to do this. This is taking my entire day. And so I started a Facebook group, and the Facebook group blew up and I turned into a mailing list and the mailing list turned into three emails a day with, from reporters, blew it up to a couple hundred thousand people, quarter million people, and sold it three years later to a company called Vocus. Now, Sijn, I’ve been hearing for the past year that Haro is not at all what it was when I was running it.

08:33
Peter Shankman
And I kept ignoring that because you can’t go home again. So I thought, people kept calling me and emailing me and asking me, hey, can you help? Can you make this better? Can you improve this much? To my, I want to say, dismay, three months ago, I launched something called Sourceofsources.com dot, which is exactly what it sounds like. It’s the Howard reincarnate, it’s the newest, it’s a better version of what I first built. I’m still, I’m running it just like I ran the first one. So I’m being very, you know, you mess up, you pitch a journalist off topic, you use AI, you’re gone. Right? And that’s kind of what was missing from what I sold. What, what they did to what I sold. We’re about 25,000 members now sending it a couple emails a day, supported by a small text, ads B Gmail.

09:10
Peter Shankman
We are sold out of email, sold out of ad space till mid October. And yeah, here we are. Totally not planned, but I’ve launched a new company and it seems to be doing very well.

09:24
Brad Weimert
Awesome. Well, let me dig into, I mean, I’ve got like 16 questions through that path, but let me dig into, let’s say, the beginning of Haro. Actually, let me go back to the agency. So what was it that allowed you to launch the first agency so quickly? Because you mentioned huge names that were clients. You said you had a pr firm. Seemingly immediately, you got these huge tech companies that were launching in the.com area. How did you do that.

09:52
Peter Shankman
A couple of reasons. Number one, I had experience from America online, and whether I knew it at the time or not, AOL was a huge force in that moment. In 1998, AOL was still very much the Internet. It was blowing up to the web, but AOL was still the 600 pound gorilla. And so I came from AOl new. I was an AOL 1.0 er. You know, I was one of the first thousand employees. The second thing is that I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know that to start an agency, it’s been told that you need to know all the people at your university, and you need to reach out to them and have a network, and you need to have, you know, your MBA from somewhere where people who work at companies who can give you money.

10:30
Peter Shankman
I didn’t know any of that. Knowing we needed clients, I’d call everyone I knew. And our first client was an ASP application service provider. And I was going to charge him, I think, like, $2,500 a month. And the woman who was the marketing director tipped her hand and she goes, look, I just want to tell you, we can’t spend more than we spent on our last agency. And that was 12,000 a month. So if you’re planning on coming in at 20,000, like, we’re not going to do that bullshit. Okay, awesome. So, you know, and that’s the beauty of it. And again, that goes back to ADHD. When I finally decided to start sources back in May, I didn’t pull it out. I didn’t do a survey. I didn’t study it. I said, fuck it, I’ll do it. And I launched it.

11:04
Peter Shankman
And that’s everything I’ve done for good or bad, has been like that. And to me, that’s the greatest way to live. There are way too many businesses that are dead on the side of the road, not because their ideas weren’t great, but because they didn’t move quick and they got caught in decision paralysis saying, well, what if it doesn’t work? Fuck if it doesn’t work. I’ll do something else. It’s Tuesday. I’m looking next to me at this dog waffle. Waffle is a rescue dog at three years old. During COVID my daughter said, or four years old, my daughter said, I want a dog. I’m like, yeah, well, you know, all the shelters are out of dogs. You’re probably not gonna get one. I volunteer at a shelter. I punted a place called best friends.

11:38
Peter Shankman
And I call them, like, guys look, I know you have no dogs and that’s fine. I don’t want to. I don’t want a fucking dog. I’m a cat guy. My daughter wants a dog. So I’m calling you to tell her that I told you that one dog and you’re gonna tell me, no, we don’t have any, right? And if it takes a year, that’s fine. Do you understand? And they go, no, Peter, we totally get it. It’s not a problem. And I’m like, cool. Oh, honey, sorry I called. You know, they don’t have any dogs. Three fucking days later, Peter. Hey, there’s a rescue in Florida that just had a four puppies dropped off, but eight weeks old. So, yeah, waffles taking up my couch, even though he knows he’s not supposed to be on my couch. Ignoring me, ignoring me.

12:20
Brad Weimert
Well, the professor is on the chair next to me right here, so I understand.

12:23
Peter Shankman
Absolutely. It’s the joke there. For better or for worse, I’m going to try it. If it works, great. If it doesn’t work, great. And if it works, great. If it doesn’t work. I learned something and I’ve just always believed in that.

12:34
Brad Weimert
Okay, so tell me about Haro relative to fuck it. Let’s just give it a shot and see if it works. So you moved into a Facebook group pretty quickly, and just for a frame of reference for everybody listening or watching, we’re talking 2007 and Facebook launched in 2006. So a Facebook group, then, you know, you could post something and literally 100% of the people in the group would see the message.

12:56
Peter Shankman
Not only that, but you’re missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that back then, every time you posted something, anyone who was a member of that group would get an email telling you, telling them that you did.

13:04
Brad Weimert
And so in that era also, emails were opened more than they are now.

13:09
Peter Shankman
Correct?

13:10
Brad Weimert
Right, correct. Inboxes weren’t segmented into promotions.

13:14
Peter Shankman
Correct.

13:14
Brad Weimert
I social, et cetera. It was just, you got an email, so you moved it from social into email inbox. Was that where it ended? Or did you have a dedicated community? I mean, ultimately you built a website to do this, right?

13:29
Peter Shankman
I built hellbearereporter.com, comma, which was essentially a one page website where you’d enter your email address and you’d start getting these queries from me. I would send you three emails a day with queries from journalists and, like, literally the same thing. Sources. Sources is right now. It doesn’t need to be reinvented. The wheel does not need to be reinvented. It is a simple if it works. At the end of the day, email is still the killer app. It always will be.

13:51
Brad Weimert
What led you to acquisition for Haro? Did you get solicited by them?

13:56
Peter Shankman
Did you?

13:56
Brad Weimert
Look, what were the dynamics around that?

13:59
Peter Shankman
For me, it was one of our largest advertisers was this company called Vocus, and they said, hey, look, we’re tied to advertising, we just want to buy you. Make me an offer again. It became the same premise that I could have built it ten times more, but I would have had to do more of the stuff I didn’t want to do. Two year earn out, which I made absolutely no problem. I was their vp and then I could walk if I wanted to.

14:19
Brad Weimert
Most of the time when people get in an earn out situation, they’re not happy working for the company afterwards and they have some dynamic of friction, having a boss not being able to do things as they want. Did you experience any of that?

14:34
Peter Shankman
Yeah, I definitely did. I mean, all of a sudden I wasn’t in charge of marketing. If I wanted to have this great idea, it actually had to go through channels and that kind of sucked, especially for someone whose brain runs as fast as mine does. All of a sudden I’m not allowed to just do something. Has he gotten back to me? No. You sent the email two minutes ago. Well, what’s he waiting for? He’s the CEO, he has other things to do. So that was a wake up call, but it was still the right choice at the time, no question about it.

14:56
Brad Weimert
So you are literally rebuilding this thing today?

15:00
Peter Shankman
Legally, I’m building something newer and better.

15:03
Brad Weimert
Of course. What has changed about your approach? Right. Ten years has passed or more, and technology is totally different. Are you approaching it differently now?

15:17
Peter Shankman
Reporters are still doing having to do more with less. But the sources, the people who get the emails are also on tighter schedules. And like you said, their inboxes are jammed now. So my goal is to make sure. Look, you’re going to get this email. It’s going to take you 7 seconds to read. Once you read it, you’re either going to reply or you’re going to delete it and you’re going to go on with your day. I will not take more than 20 seconds a day from you. But in those 20 seconds, you could wind up on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. It’ll never cost you anything. I’m never going to charge you and I’m going to give you valid information and the basics still apply. Give people what they need when they need it and you’re going to help them.

15:51
Peter Shankman
I know people who set their alarms because the email, the morning email always goes at 05:45 a.m. I know people who set their alarms to 05:45 a.m. Wake up, read the email, scan it, see if they can answer any of the queries. If not, go back to bed or go to the gym. They say they go to the gym, they go back to bed. The goal is to be able to help someone. Help never goes out of style, and too many companies don’t understand that. When was the last time you had an email from a company just saying, hey, I want to help you, not, hey, I want to sell something to you.

16:17
Brad Weimert
Uncommon for sure.

16:18
Peter Shankman
Yeah. So the premise of being able to say, hey, look, it’s going to take 7 seconds, but literally you could wind up on the front page of newspaper on CNN tomorrow morning.

16:24
Brad Weimert
Got it. And so for those that never used Haro or don’t know the model, can you explain the basics of the model to us? And what’s the name of the new company?

16:32
Peter Shankman
Source of sources is the new company. So’s it’s at sourceofsources.com dot. You sign up once and then you simply get two emails a day, one at 05:45 a.m. One at around 12:30 p.m. And those emails have queries from journalists, right? They have queries from journalists that say something like, I’m writing an article for USA Today. I’m looking for a BMW CPO warranty expert needed to weigh in. I need a us based BMW CPO warranty expert, BMW finance manager, technicians to share unique insights based on their experiences to be considered. What is the BMW CPO warranty covered? What perks does it offer? Things like that. Right. So that’s a query. If you happen to know this industry, work in that you’re there, right? Fox business wants to know. Buying land, buying a house, real estate advice, looking for real estate agents and realtors.

17:17
Peter Shankman
What advice do you have for home buyers who would like to buy land and then build their first home? I’m looking for a real estate article for home buyers looking to build a home this way and want to know the best way to proceed. So if you’re a home builder or a land builder or real estate agent, you can answer these questions. Boom, you just got your company or your name or whatever into the press, into Fox business. Pretty good audience there. Cost you maybe five minutes to write the email and send it and cost you, nothing else.

17:40
Brad Weimert
Your value prop on your end is you’ve got a ton of reporters, right? You’ve got a ton of media one hand that need sources on the other. And then you’ve got, and then I suppose the proposition for me or any expert in the world on any given topic is they’re looking for these posts that you send out that say, hey, we need an expert in this space.

18:03
Peter Shankman
Everyone is an expert at something, right? So how would that benefit you to find your name in the New York Times tomorrow as an expert in this industry? Would that help you get more podcast guests? Would that help you get more keynote speeches? Would it help you bring in new consulting clients? What would that do? It costs you nothing to do it except 20 seconds of your day. And here’s the thing. There are other companies out there that since I sold Haro, other companies have popped up and tried to do this. Something like so’s comes with a large portion of trust served on the side. I’m the guy that founded the first one that ever did this, right? People know who I am and they know they’re not going to waste their time. They know it’s worth opening my emails.

18:41
Peter Shankman
My emails have so’s emails have on average, a 65% open rate.

18:45
Brad Weimert
And you said inside of three months you’re up to 25,000, just under 25,000 users.

18:50
Peter Shankman
And we’re sold out on ads, literally, small three line text ad at the top of every email. We’re sold on them until mid October.

18:55
Brad Weimert
Yeah. One of the things that I like about your general approach is keep things simple. Just start it and move forward. How do you curate those things? How do you keep it simple? Because it seems like a mass amount of reporters or media outlets and a mass amount of people looking, matching them appropriately would be the challenge.

19:14
Peter Shankman
That’s not my job.

19:16
Brad Weimert
Okay?

19:16
Peter Shankman
My job is to send the email to the sources. It’s a source’s job to say, hey, this guy wants to know about BMW, CPO warranties, and I work in that industry and know about them, I’ll respond. My job is to connect the journalists with that source. Now it’s the journalist’s job to make sure that source isn’t full of shit. The difference between me and the other sites out there is that if a source is full of shit and responds to that reporter, and the reporter says, hey, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re just trying to get pressed, you’re wasting my time. All they have to do is forward that email to me. And that source is banned for life because I don’t make money by sending out these emails. I don’t make money on a subscription. If you screw up, you’re gone.

19:56
Peter Shankman
And that does not affect any revenue I bring in. In fact, it actually makes it. The chance improves it because it improves the quality of the readers of that email.

20:07
Brad Weimert
Yeah, I guess where my head was is, if you’ve got 10,000 reporters that are making these inquiries on a daily basis or whatever, how do you segment the message that the email is relevant to the potential expert?

20:20
Peter Shankman
It’s broken into five or six categories. I don’t remember how many. General, lifestyle, business, finance, healthcare, pharmaceutical, tech, travel. You simply, if you don’t want to waste your time, if you don’t know anything about business finance, but you know all about travel, just scroll down.

20:36
Brad Weimert
Cool. Well, so let’s move past the initial haro phase. So you sold it because you didn’t want to grow the business further and weren’t interested in what activities might have to come with that. Where’d you go from there?

20:49
Peter Shankman
So I started consulting for different companies. I was doing a lot of, I started speaking a ton on customer experience because, I mean, I built this thing to quarter million members with a ridiculous open rate and people who trusted me. And so companies started hiring. How do you get such a loyal audience? I’m like, well, basically, don’t be a dick. I started speaking consulting to companies like Starwood, American Express, Disney, speaking to all these companies about customer experience, about the new customer economy. Was married at the time, and my marriage wasn’t doing that great. Not because I was doing anything stupid, but I, we just weren’t compatible and couldn’t figure out why.

21:28
Peter Shankman
And I finally, that’s when I finally got diagnosed with ADHD and realized that all my fuck ups, all my screw ups in my life, everything I did wrong and everything I did right were both a product of my ADHD. And all my success was because of, not in spite of, my neurodiversity. The problem with that is that when you don’t know it, you just think you believe you get really lucky and actually have no skill at all. And so I finally got diagnosed, and as my marriage is ending, I spent a year researching all the stuff that I do that everyone else thinks is weird, that I think is normal stuff like getting up at 03:45 a.m. To work out because I feel better if I have.

22:18
Peter Shankman
Well, it turns out it’s not that I feel better because God knows I haven’t lost enough weight to say it’s working, but I feel I get enough dopamine. The dopamine is how I was self medicating before I was diagnosed. Some people self medicate with cocaine. I learned to thank God. I learned to self medicate with exercise and skydiving and probably entrepreneurship. So I spent some time researching all this, and that turned into my first New York Times bestseller called faster than normal. And faster than normal was a book about sort of the concept of using your neurodiversity, your ADHD, as a gift, not a curse. That led to a whole new chapter in my life where I would go and talk to companies about how to attract, hire, and retain neurodiverse employees.

23:04
Peter Shankman
And they loved having me come in and speak, but they want to hire me as a consultant, and I finally figured out why a couple of years ago. I don’t have a PhD or any kind of doctor after my name, but an ex girlfriend of mine does. She’s the Today show psychologist. And so we partnered and we launched a company about a year ago called Mental Capital. And mental capital helps companies attract higher and retain neurodiverse employees. Our clients currently include Morgan Stanley, Adobe, Google, ad agencies, pr firms, and we’re helping them understand that having a neurodiverse workforce is actually benefit and can actually greatly increase the productivity and output of your company.

23:37
Brad Weimert
Let me, let me start with the foundation of this. Here you live in New York, and people might know what neurodiversity is. I’m in Texas. Just so that we can clarify, I.

23:47
Peter Shankman
Don’T think you’re allowed to say the word neurodiversity in Texas. Yeah, you can’t say that word there. Neurodiversity is all brains are beautiful. Some brains are a little different. The ones that are different are still beautiful. But in the past, my neurodiversity, which is my ADHD in New York City in the seventies, was not ADHD. It was called, sit down, you’re disrupting the class disease. And over time, we discovered that brains react in different ways. We have only been not hunting for food for about 1200 years. Prior to that, all we did was hunt for food. A lot of us are still hunters, except we live in a gatherer world now. The gatherer world is that uber eats can deliver your food in five minutes. There’s no excitement there.

24:26
Peter Shankman
And so a lot of us are still in a hunter mentality, and we don’t actually know how to adjust properly in a environment that over the past 100, and 5200 years is entirely gatherer focused. The reason that kids go into a classroom and sit in rows, in their seats and columns is because 250 years ago, one room schoolhouses had to get as many kids as possible in that classroom. We still do it the same way for no reason other. And so neurodiversity essentially means that you have a different brain. It could be ADD, ADHD, autism, executive function disorder, dysmorphia, so many different things within the brain, all of which can lead to incredible outcomes if the brains are treated as gifted and not broken.

25:12
Brad Weimert
So let me focus. I want to highlight one thing here, which is the delineation between the term neurodiversity and ADHD. And ADHD is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And so the notion here is that neurodiversity is a rebrand or a different way to look at that, in that it’s not a disorder, it’s just humanity.

25:40
Peter Shankman
You know, people who have disorders are diagnosed with them. I personally feel like I’ve won the lottery. I’ve never been diagnosed with them in the lottery. I’m never going to get diagnosed with getting a supermodel. Those aren’t things that the word diagnosis tends to fit in there. Imagine a world where at five years old, we tell the kids not they’re broken, but that they’re gifted, and now they don’t have to spend the next 30 years of their lives unlearning and undoing all the damage that was given to them because they were told for the last 30 years they were broken. Right? I mean, imagine a world where you’re told, yeah, you’re gifted, you could do anything, and you actually go on and do, as opposed to having to prove it and wrong. First, I’ll give a keynote to 10,000 people.

26:12
Peter Shankman
9999 of them will stand up and cheer. That one person who’s not, he’s the one I focus on. Oh, he hated me. No one’s gonna like me. I’m never gonna get another speech again. That goes back to, like, 6th grade, right? Being told to sit down, just try to sleep, you’re disrupting the class. For all I know, that guy didn’t stand up as a paraplegic, but as far as I know, he just didn’t like me. Right? So it’s a hard lesson to learn. And so if we can change that conversation, instead of a disorder and say, yeah, you want to hire the neurodiverse employee, you want to hire the autistic employee, they are going to radically think of different ways your company can run and for the better. That’s what we need to start doing.

26:48
Brad Weimert
Well, let me ask you a question on that. So I have a very close friend, Cameron Harold, who.

26:53
Peter Shankman
Oh, yeah, Cameron. I’ve had him on the podcast several times.

26:54
Brad Weimert
Yeah, I love that. Great guy who also self identifies as having ADHD, and he has a narrative or a story that he tells. I don’t even know what to call it. It’s an element of a lot of his talks where he draws the parallel between entrepreneurship and ADHD. It is clear that there are a ton of people running companies that are sort of all over the place, entrepreneurs, to the point where it’s become a characteristic of most personalities. When people think about entrepreneurship inside a given company and being an employee, what roles should be linked to something like ADHD and what role should not?

27:41
Peter Shankman
I’ll give you an example. I did not set up this meeting. My assistant did. And that’s not because I’m that guy who has his assistant do everything, because I’m not. I like to do everything, but I’ve had my assistant for 15 years now. 14 and a half years ago, I went to put something on my calendar, and it wasn’t working. And I texted my assistant, like, hey, something’s up with my calendar. It’s not working. She’s like, no, it’s actually working fine. I just took away your write access to it. Like, I’m sorry. She’s like, you no longer have write access to your calendar. If you want to do something, you tell me, and I’ll see if you can do it. And if you can, I’ll put it in the calendar. I’m like, that’s really rude. She’s like, well, Peter, here’s the thing.

28:12
Peter Shankman
You booked two dinners on the same night. I’m like, okay, you’re definitely overreacting. Two days, the same night. Anyone can make that mistake. And she interrupted me. She goes, Peter, you booked them on separate continents, and you’re done. And that was the last time I’ve had right access to my calendar, because I don’t do that well, right? I will easily double book something. I will show up at one place from supposed to be another. I will show up at LaGuardia when I’m supposed to fly to Newark. I have systems in place, specifically my assistant and other methods that allow me to run my companies the best way I can because I do the things that I’m great at. I am great at the creative.

28:46
Peter Shankman
I’m great at the, hey, let’s throw a 400 person event, and we’ll hire, get this space and we’ll go see it. Will hire, spend the money. And I know that is where it’s gonna stop. And then I’ll have a half written contract or half filled out contract from the. From the space. I have six caterers have to interview them and the conference won’t happen. So I create the idea. I come up with a theme. I have all the panels and the tracks, and they hand it off.

29:12
Brad Weimert
Your assistants. We got an email from your assistant this morning and I thought it was great. So it’s from your assistant. And then her title is calming influence to Peter Schenk 100%.

29:25
Peter Shankman
When I was wearing Harrow and she worked in my apartment, she worked in my second bedroom, in my two bedroom up in the upper west side. Whenever someone would write something negative about me on a comment or whatever or on a blog, I’ve stopped reading them since. But she would hear me what she called typing with purpose, which clearly meant that I was pissed off. And I was immediately anger replying. It wasn’t thinking about what I was saying. It was going back to bite me. And she would pull the router. Why is this fucking thing working? God damn it. I hit it. Peter, go take a walk. Come back in 20 minutes. I’m sure the rattle will be working. And then we can decide if you really want to send whatever it was you were typing.

30:03
Peter Shankman
And she said this with this calm sort of like sing song. Oh, God, I want to punch the fuck out of her. But she’s 100% right every single time. I would not be remotely as successful. I wouldn’t be anything if it wasn’t for Megan. There’s no question about it. She has figured out what I need. And that being said, she’s constantly in awe of my brilliance when it comes to things I’m good at.

30:25
Brad Weimert
Yeah, well, when do you decide when to focus on the things that you’re good at versus trying to get better at the thing that you’re not good at?

30:32
Peter Shankman
Once every year or so, I’ll try to get better at the thing I’m not good at. It’ll last about 6 hours. I’ll get sick of it and I’ll pass it off. I love it. And, dude, that doesn’t mean that I’m lazy or anything like that. It just means that I know that, like, if it’s gonna take me 4 hours to do one scheduling thing or whatever, and megan, get it done. I’m a skydiver. I go to the drop zone upstate. I jump. I do like five jumps in a day. In order to get your license, you have to learn how to pack your parachute. Right. It’s a very specific process. I learned to pack my parachute. You have to pack it and then jump your own parachute to prove you could do it.

31:01
Peter Shankman
So I learned, went through the process, taught myself how to pack it, got lessons, packed my parachute, jumped it, and opened. On average, it takes me about 45 minutes and a lot of cursing to pack my parachute. I’m not, I’m not a. A tiny guy, right. So the bigger you are, the heavier your parachute. My parachute is 229. I’m trying to put that into a bag roughly the size of my dog. It takes about 45 minutes to an hour to get through it, or I pay the packers. They have at the drop zone $10 per job, $10 per jump, and they pack it for me in six minutes. I know it’s going to open, I know it’s going to work perfectly, and I’m back on the next plane 20 minutes later. What’s my time worth? What’s more valuable to me?

31:43
Peter Shankman
Am I going to get two jumps in a day or I get six? Same thing with Megan, same thing with my assistant, same thing with the people I hire to do the stuff that I’m not great. I know what I’m not great at, and I’m perfectly okay with that.

31:53
Brad Weimert
Also, back to you. Consulting for all these companies around, having a diverse workforce, what you just described can work very well for an entrepreneur. If I’m hiring somebody, what I don’t want them to do is ignore the things that they don’t want to do and only do the things that they do want to do.

32:12
Peter Shankman
Well, you got to realize neurodiverse means all forms of neuro, all different types of brains, including the type of brain that wants to do nothing but stare at a spreadsheet for 8 hours a day. I have a friend named Cheryl, and literally, that is what she’s done with her life for the past 30 years. She’s a financial CPA, something for, like, huge companies. She goes in, stares at spreadsheets, makes decisions for 8 hours a day, and comes home. I would have blown my brains out 28 years ago. Two years into that, she gets off on it. Different brains, man. I will hire the people that love to do the stuff I hate because they’re great at it and they enjoy it. I don’t know how to fuck to do my health insurance. You kidding me?

32:54
Brad Weimert
So tell me some of the common diagnoses and what roles they would be good at.

33:03
Peter Shankman
You know what? I’m not a doctor, so I won’t do that. But what I will tell you is this. You hire people who love the roles that you have for them. One of the financial companies I’m working with, that our company is working with, we did an all company seminar to their like 80,000 employees about what managers can learn, how managers can deal better. Not with neurodiverse employees, but how managers can deal better with caregivers of neurodiverse employees. Right. Of the mom who has a six year old autistic kid who once a month or so is going to completely lose his shit at school and need to be picked up.

33:43
Peter Shankman
Dad of the 17 year old kid who is in serious therapy to control his outbursts or his rage or whatever, and needs time to be able to handle that with his son and can he work from home a couple days? So it’s not just about I don’t want a workforce that’s entirely neurodiverse. We’d never get anything done or we’d come up with great ideas and never implement them. I want a workforce that is neuro inclusive, which has neurodiverse. Neurotypical has everyone and they work together as a seamless. That’s the goal, right? I don’t. Chances are the CFO of any given Fortune 500 is not neurodiverse at all. Most people with numbers, I mean, there’s some levels of neurodiversity that love numbers, but CFO most C suite is not neurodiverse.

34:42
Peter Shankman
But the C suite needs to understand that the marketing department, that the coding department, the tech department, chances are they all are. And that’s good.

34:49
Brad Weimert
Tell me about, so you mentioned in the seventies, growing up, ADHD was sit your ass down and stop disrupting the class. In 1980, it was the beginning of ADHD as a diagnosis. It was formalized in DSM three R at that point. If you look at the statistics of people being considered ADHD, it has gone through the roof from 1980 to 2020. So it went from one and a half percent in nineteen eighty to three percent in 1990 to nine to 10% in 2020.

35:26
Peter Shankman
Yeah, it actually didn’t go through the roof until the past ten years. And there’s a lot of reasons for that. One of the first is because for the first time, a lot of people feel comfortable enough to talk about mental health. We never talked about mental health in the past. Go watch mad men. The alcoholic was sent to a camp to dry out. Right? What’s the great line? This never happened. You’ll be amazed how much this never happened. The woman, God forbid, who had mental health issues, was sent to a sanatorium. We didn’t discuss mental health. We didn’t wear our t shirts that said ADHD and proud or, you know, ADHD and the style of AC DC. Talk about it. I always knew I was different.

36:06
Peter Shankman
I was fortunate that I went to a performing arts high school where everyone was different, so it wasn’t as terrible. But we didn’t talk about mental health, and we are finally starting to talk about mental health. Simone Biles is very open about her ADHD. I’ve had countless people on the podcast. I mean, faster than normal, has over 350 episodes now, all of whom are neurodiverse, every single, every single guest. And we’ve had Dave Nealman, who founded Jetblue. We’ve had Seth Godin, we’ve had the mayor of Boston. We’ve had, you know, count, like the band shine down, all these people. Just because you can’t find your keys when you get home doesn’t mean you’re ADHD. It could mean that you’re an idiot. Just need to hang up a hook next to your door. All right, so we. I don’t want to.

36:48
Brad Weimert
I agree.

36:48
Peter Shankman
I don’t like people who put it down and say, oh, I must be having an ADHD moment. No, you’re not. Stop it. You know you’d never say you’re having a cancer moment, right? Don’t say you’re having an ADHD moment. But I look at it along lines of, I was having this conversation when Tim Walls was picked for VP and the Republicans went on the whole tirade about how he put. He allowed free feminine hygiene products in the bathrooms and, oh, my God, he must be Satan. I mentioned how, I mentioned on threads how back in, my daughter was eight. She’s eleven now. When she was eight, I was a single dad. When she was eight, I was at a drugstore by myself waiting for a prescription, and there wasn’t anyone. There weren’t many people working, weren’t many customers there.

37:29
Peter Shankman
So I started talking to the pharmacist and I asked her. I’m like, you know, I’m just curious. My daughter’s still eight. She’s got a few years, but do you have five minutes? You want to teach me, like, what I need to know? Like, when that day does come? She’s like, absolutely. And she went out and she showed me, here’s. This is what you could use. This light flow, heavy flow wings became vastly knowledgeable about when my daughter starts that process, and I joke about it. I was like, yeah, I had an ADHD moment and figured I might as well ask. Well, that’s an ADHD positive moment, right? And I love that about me. I love that just came out of my mouth. What do I have to lose?

38:05
Brad Weimert
Well, so the fundamental difference between saying I had a cancer moment and I had an ADHD moment is ADHD is a list of criteria that you might meet. That is not how cancer is defined.

38:18
Peter Shankman
Exactly.

38:18
Brad Weimert
Right. So you look at the definition, and I think this is an important point because I see both things happening with the conversation with you. Like, the overarching is, I don’t like hearing it as a disease or a diagnosis. And that’s sort of the point of the label neurodivergent. How do you think about drugs as they work with that label?

38:42
Peter Shankman
I am not anti medden. I have a prescription for ADHD medication. I’m supposed to take it daily. I take it two or three times a month. My assistant actually puts on my calendar when, on the off chance she has to schedule three or more meetings in a day, she puts on my calendar pill day, with a reminder the night before that it would better if I took a pill to help manage my ADHD, because three meetings is hell on anyone better. Living through chemistry is a fine concept, but I don’t think it should be the first line of defense. We’re putting five year olds on methamphetamines, which is essentially what ADHD medications are. And we’re doing that because sometimes they’re just acting like they’re five. Problem is, we’re putting them on these meds, and they stay on these meds.

39:27
Peter Shankman
They’re about 25, and then they’re kicked off their parents insurance. And they might not have the ability to get back on the meds, but they also haven’t learned anything between age five and age 25. Pills don’t teach skills. I have no problem with medication, but it has to come in partnership with the understanding of why your brain works differently and the things you can do without the medication to help get to that point. And that’s. Those are the things that I wound up doing most of my life without realizing it. And I always thought I was weird for it. And then when everything clicked in, I’m like, well, shit, this makes perfect sense. There’s a reason that my lights come on automatically start coming up in a sunrise pattern at 03:45 a.m.

40:06
Peter Shankman
And I’m on the bike by 430 every morning, and I sleep in my bike shorts to make sure I don’t forget to do that. Not because I want to exercise, because I like how I feel better, and I’m more productive and a better dad and everything with that. So I have no problem with medication at all. But it has to go hand in hand with children, adults, whatever, being able to understand that you have a brain that works differently than the norm. And if you are taught to drive a Honda accord your whole life, there are certain things about the Honda Accord. You know, you need to floor it to get up to highway speed. If one day you’re given a Lamborghini and you drive it the same way you’re driving a Honda accord, it’s not going to end well.

40:56
Peter Shankman
If you floor that to get up to highway speed, you’re going to be 2 miles down the road wrapped around a tree. You have to learn how to drive your brain differently. Medication can help you do that, but it’s not the only arsenal or not the only arrow in your quiver. And it can’t be.

41:11
Brad Weimert
How do you think about navigating ADHD with a child versus an adult?

41:20
Peter Shankman
We need to teach the children that are not broken. They’re gifted, again, for the simple reason that they won’t spend the next 30 years trying to undo that damage. Adults need to understand that they’re gonna have a long road ahead of them, of getting themselves out of that mental place, that mental black hole that says, yeah, everything I’ve done wrong is because I’m stupid. I’m 52. I still go through that every once in a while. It’s mind blowing. You know, the thing about ADHD is that sometimes, you know, the goal is to stay on the. On the track and to have markers in place to keep you going down, straight down the path. Because when you go off the track, sometimes it’s really hard to get back on it. I landed a massive account once, and I was so excited.

42:05
Peter Shankman
I’ve been trying to get it for weeks and landed it, and all I want to do is tell at the time, my wife met about it, and my wife had a habit of not picking up her cell phone that often. It used to drive me crazy. And so I call her, doesn’t answer her cell phone. So I’m like, all right, it’s important to call her off as I get. I call her desk, she doesn’t answer. I call her cell phone again, no answer. I send her an email. By this point, I’m off the rails. I send her email. You know, I really thought I wanted to share this with you. I really got this amazing account. This is incredible. I’ve been trying to do this for months. I wanted to share my joy with you. You’re the only person really share with it.

42:33
Peter Shankman
You obviously don’t give a shit. So I don’t even know why I’m bothering. Goodbye. Hung up the phone or sent the email. Now, 30 seconds later, the phone rings. Hey, honey. I was in an impromptu meeting with my boss. I noticed that you called. What’s. Oh, you sent me an email too. Let’s say. What the fuck is wrong with you, Peter? That was literally how it happened. Because in my head, we got married, divorced, broken up, and got divorced in a matter of 8 seconds. Sometimes that’s what happens. And so as much as I learn those skills, as much as anyone learns those skills, sometimes you’re just going to have a bit of a day.

43:10
Brad Weimert
Okay, let’s pull it back to business. Because you spend a lot of your time consulting major companies around how to navigate this. What is the most important element of having a diverse workforce?

43:28
Peter Shankman
A lot of it is removing preconceived notions, understanding that not everyone is going to be like you. And just because they’re not like you doesn’t mean they don’t have a similar or even better way of doing that same job. One of my favorite stories, I was a 17. I was working a summer job in Manhattan at a yogurt store. It was boring, whatever, but it gave me some cash, and manager was a dick. But what I remember, I was cleaning up the back one day and I came across a small can of polish. Like gold. There were two. There was an awning out front and two gold poles, like a lot of places in New York used to have. And the poles, you know, hold the awning up. And the poles are dirty as hell, right?

44:12
Peter Shankman
Years of like, you know, abuse from like exhaust fumes or whatever. So I saw this gold polish. So one day, you know, we’re not that busy, I go outside, I take a rag, and I start polishing the poles. They look amazing. I’m almost done with the second pole and the boss. What are you doing? You’re not polishing the polo. They were kind of gross. I figured maybe if they’re shiny or people. I don’t pay you to think, get your ass back in and you’re fired. I was so angry, I couldn’t. I think I quit, like a couple days later. I was going to college anyway. It didn’t matter, but I was. So I’m like, why wouldn’t he see what I was trying to do? Learned a valuable lesson that day. Don’t waste your time trying to speak butterfly to caterpillar people.

44:46
Peter Shankman
There are some people who are never going to understand your brand of magic. Try not to associate with them. But any boss I’d ever have, if I ever took a full time job again, first thing I’d say, I’d go on. The boss said, look, so let you know, here’s I do things a different way. I’m not gonna. I’m not telling you I want to change everything, but I’m saying sometimes it might seem weird if I’m doing a certain way. Ask me about it. Before you get upset. Let’s talk about what I’m doing and I’ll explain it to you how to do it. But my brain works a little differently than yours, and I think that it’s getting even easier to have that conversation.

45:16
Peter Shankman
From the clients that I’ve seen, it’s definitely getting easier to have that conversation because companies are starting to understand that neuro inclusivity actually does is a tide that raises all boats. And that’s awesome.

45:29
Brad Weimert
What are some tips to managing a more diverse workforce?

45:32
Peter Shankman
Make sure you’re open to listening to your employees. Your employees have to know they can talk to you. They have to feel they can talk to you. They have to believe they can talk to you. If they don’t, they’re gonna clam up, they’re gonna be afraid. Be willing to listen, be willing to understand, even be willing to learn. Right. The things you don’t necessarily understand, be willing to learn about them. To me, understanding how your team works and letting them work the way they want is the absolute best thing you can do for any business.

46:01
Brad Weimert
What are some tips to finding a neurodiverse group of employees to hire?

46:09
Peter Shankman
The nice thing about it is success, but gets success. So as you start creating a neuro inclusive workforce, you’re going to, the people who work there are going to talk about it and they’re going to share that. And one of the first things you can do is go internal for your hires. Look, talk to the people who work for you and say, hey, I’m looking for someone just like you. Right? Do you know anyone? Right? I know you have to post.

46:34
Brad Weimert
Most people don’t have. Well, most people don’t have neurodiverse or I have ADHD on the resume, right?

46:40
Peter Shankman
No, but you be open about it. You’re not saying, I’m looking for someone who’s ADHD like you. I’m looking for someone who works the same way as you, who’s as motivated and productive as you. Because the fact matter is that we seek each other out. I call it ADHD. We find each other. I can tell in 5 seconds, right? People want to work for companies they trust, and people learn to trust companies from the people who their friends are who already work there. You tell me you’re a great neurodiverse and neuro champion company. I’m not going to believe you unless you’re someone I know, unless I trust you. If it says in your ad, we respect all cultures. No, you don’t. But if I hear it, if I see it, someone I trust, that’s the neurodiversity pipeline.

47:24
Peter Shankman
So, you know, to be able to grow, that starts with letting your employees talk to you, letting them understand, learning how things are different, all that stuff.

47:33
Brad Weimert
Interesting. Okay, so I want to wrap with a couple quick ones from you. What do you think the biggest mistake is that you’ve made through your business career? And what did you learn from it?

47:47
Peter Shankman
Most definitely hiring people who I assumed would have the same passion as I did about my project. No one is ever going to have the same amount of passion for your project as you do. You can hire people with passion, and they will work, but it never, it’s very rare that it means that you could just say, okay, you got this. I’m gonna do something else. You’ll find people over time who you can mold to care about what you’re building the same way you do. But you’re never gonna hire someone to replace you if you get hit by a milk truck who has the same level of passion as you do. So never lose that passion. If you find that passion waning, ask you if it’s time to do something else.

48:29
Brad Weimert
What do you think the best thing that you’ve ever done in businesses?

48:32
Peter Shankman
Back before Twitter was a hellscape, I once jokingly sent a tweet to Morton’s steakhouse that said, hey, I’m about to board a three hour flight back to Newark. Can you meet me with a porterhouse when I land, because I’m starving. And they did. But that actually raised Morton’s revenue over 10% over the course of the year. But that wasn’t planned. No, I’d say the best thing I ever did was learning at a very early age, learning from Steve Case and Ted Leon says by two bosses today, well, that your goal is to create something good that helps people. And it is very rare that creating something good that helps people will not also generate revenue. But if you go into something only looking to generate revenue, it’s not going to be as great as you think.

49:09
Peter Shankman
Go in trying to solve a problem that people have. And so I try to do that with everything I built, whether it was Haro so’s metal capital. The goal is to try and solve a problem that people have with care and with empathy.

49:21
Brad Weimert
Peter Shankman, I appreciate your time, man. It’s been awesome. Good talking. Where do you want to point people? Yeah, it’s great to see you. It’s long overdue.

49:28
Peter Shankman
So sourceofsources.com is how to sign up and get free media. Mental capital consulting is the firm for neurodiversity and employment. And then my life [email protected] dot I’m eterchankman on all the socials except Twitter. I post a lot on Instagram. I’m a huge user of threads. You can find me in the metaverse. The fed verse, rather not in the metaverse. Fed verse pretty much anywhere. So just add Peter Shankman and you’ll see me everywhere.

49:56
Brad Weimert
Love it, Peter. Until next time.

49:58
Peter Shankman
All right, Brad, good talking to you.

49:59
Brad Weimert
I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I enjoyed doing it. I need your help. There are three places you can find beyond a million. The podcast itself beyond a million.com, which has some cool free resources, including a free course. And we finally launched the Beyond a million YouTube channel. I would love it if you would go there and subscribe. And if you don’t want to, you still will probably enjoy seeing the visual content. Check it out. YouTube.com eondamillion.