237: How to Build Category-Defining Brands in Any Industry with Jim Donnelly

Today I’m talking to Jim Donnelly, a founder who has built and scaled businesses across travel, real estate, wellness, and longevity medicine.

He built an online travel community with 300,000+ members that later rolled into Travelocity. He developed luxury real estate that still holds Charlotte’s record for price per square foot. He co-founded Restore Hyper Wellness and helped scale it to 225+ locations. Now, he’s building Humanaut Health, a longevity medicine company with $10M-per-clinic potential.

But the interesting part isn’t just what Jim has built. It’s how he keeps moving into completely different industries and finding the opportunity before everyone else sees it.

A lot of founders fail when they jump categories because they assume the same playbook will work again. Jim sees it differently. He’s clear about what transfers from one business to the next, what doesn’t, and why the best opportunities are often hiding inside big categories that already exist.

We get into how he builds brands people actually care about, why he’d rather have fewer customers who love him than more customers who only like him, and the biggest lessons he learned after raising $140M in private equity.

Mic Drop Moments

• “I don’t think you have to be the subject matter expert that’s done something for 20 years to be a good CEO. I think you’ve got to know what you’re good at. I think you’ve got to then go find other people that are going to make up for your weaknesses.” – Jim Donnelly

• “I’ve never done a brand that didn’t have massive emotional resonance with the clients.” – Jim Donnelly

• “I think I’ve had a good ability to sort of look at it differently and do the exact opposite thing that other people would do.” – Jim Donnelly

• “Building an incredibly new behavior in a brand-new category, that’s hard. Taking an existing category and finding existing behavior and simply twisting that into a new form factor or a new format, is significantly easier.” – Jim Donnelly

• “Every customer should walk out the door feeling better than they walked in.” – Jim Donnelly

• “I would much rather have a set of customers that love what we do than have three times the number of customers who like what we do.” – Jim Donnelly

• “The day that a schoolteacher can have all the things that a rich guy can have, I will have accomplished my goal.” – Jim Donnelly

• Building Across Different Categories
• Creating Emotional Brand Resonance
• The Contrarian Charlotte Real Estate Bet
• New Opportunities Within Existing Businesses
• Listening to Consumer Signals
• 2Bootstrapping Word Of Mouth
• Stop Trying to Please Everyone
• Raising $140M For Restore
• Restore’s Three Fatal Flaws
• The Real Math Of A Wellness Franchise
• Building A More Defensible Business (Humanaut)
• Creating a $65k/Year Membership
•  Democratizing Longevity
• The Downsides of Raising PE
• How Money Changes People
• The Losses That Fuel What’s Next

Brad Weimert: Jim Donnelly, you have a kind of a wild entrepreneurial backdrop because you’ve done just a bizarre variety of things over the course of your life. I want to go through the most recent ones, but IgoUgo was a travel community. Now you are the CEO of Humanaut. Before that, you built Restore to last I saw 200-plus locations, raised $140 million through the process. These are all wildly different business models. I want to talk about lots of stuff, but I think as a starting point, IgoUgo, you had 300,000-plus members before you sold it. That company ultimately rolled into Travelocity. Restore, you had 100-plus stores before raising 140 million. That grew to 225. And Humanaut sort of has parallels to Restore, but very different. When you compare growing an online community to a physical location, what were the differences? Which one do you think was harder?

Jim Donnelly: Well, they have their own unique challenges, and I think for me, I’ve heard the arguments of being a real expert that you can go deep in a particular category, maybe is helpful. But I don’t think like that as a CEO. I feel like I’ve got a philosophy. I’ve got a way of creating a brand. I’ve got a way of creating a business. I’ve got a way of creating a culture. And I think if you do those things well, you will have a good business, whether it’s a travel company or a health optimization company, or a real estate company. Because there have been others that you didn’t mention that were equally sort of out there in terms of, you know.

But I will say this, there’s been a little piece of all of those previous experiences that have been a part of Humanaut. For instance, we have a community at Humanaut, IgoUgo. Before Restore, I did a bunch of experiential retail things. Okay, there’s retail. Citibank helped do the marketing for all of their online marketing efforts, digital marketing. You know, like you’re pulling pieces from each of them, but to me, as a CEO, I don’t think you have to be the subject matter expert that’s done something for 20 years to be a good CEO. I think you’ve got to know what you’re good at. I think you’ve got to then go find other people that are going to make up for your weaknesses.

I think you’ve got to do things you’re passionate about. I think you’ve got to do things you’re good at. Like, I wouldn’t be good at some things. And I think that the same kind of approach will generally get you good results, independent of the category.

Brad Weimert: I like that idea. Also…

Jim Donnelly: Yeah. A lot of people would dispute that.

Brad Weimert: Right.

Jim Donnelly: A lot of people would dispute that.

Brad Weimert: Well, that’s precisely why I want to dig into it, because I also… The number of people that switch categories, switch industries, switch verticals, and fail far outweighs the number that successfully do it. I love the idea of sort of if you grow as a human and/or a CEO, you should be compounding in life, right? You should be being able to pull experience from one to the next. But I think about it sort of like transitive equations in math, where, like, you get a math problem, and maybe that’s the wrong expression for what I’m about to say, but that’s okay. You get a math problem when you’re in middle school, and you’ve been practicing this one form of the math problem. And you get to the test, and it’s a slightly different form.

And you’re like, “Well, I know the principles, but this doesn’t work the same way.” And that’s kind of how I think about even if you have sort of the underlying principles of business or building a community or building a client experience, building a digital ecosystem for a community versus a retail storefront, fundamentally, what do you think the big challenges are bridging that gap? Or what do you think is different that you had to figure out?

Jim Donnelly: I mean, they are different, but I like to focus on the similarities. Like, I’ve never done a brand that didn’t have massive emotional resonance with the clients. So, I like to think of what are the commonalities of these things as opposed to the differences. So, I was incredibly passionate about travel. I was a military kid, traveled all over the world. IgoUgo was at a time in my life where I was single, I was traveling like crazy, I loved it. And so, I had the idea of I’m not going to work. I’m going to enhance the thing that I am the most passionate about, a travel company that gets me to all these cool places. By the way, there’s a lot of people like me. I can harness them. It takes a really interesting, quirky, resonant brand to do that. So, got to be good at brand building.

Little idiosyncrasies kind of make it special if you want to stand out. I would say that’s true of Humanaut, Restore, IgoUgo. And so, I think of these commonalities more than… I don’t actually think of the differences. I mean, it’s so obvious that they’re different. It’s like an online community versus opening a franchise, a set of franchise locations around the country. I mean, those are insanely different, but they started with the same principles, like something I was incredibly passionate about, something that I had the sort of desire to lean into and accumulate the skills I needed to be good at it, something that required an interesting, unique brand. Like people ask me all the time, like Humanaut, like that’s an interesting brand. Well, that’s not by mistake.

Like, I didn’t want to create another sort of life extension company or something. I wanted to create something that was really resonant to people, that had its own personality, that people could tap into and be a part of it. And I want them walking around saying, “I’m a Humanaut.” And same thing at IgoUgo. People walked around… The best story I ever got from an IgoUgo member was a guy named Mark, and he said, “Jim…” We did these little community gatherings, and we go to this one, and I’m just saying, “Why do you guys like IgoUgo?” And this guy says, “Listen, I’m an accountant. I go to parties. I live my life. No one cares about what I think. I’m boring. I mean, no one says, ‘Well, tell me more about your job,’ ever.”

And he said, “When I’m in IgoUgo, I’m Marco Polo. Everybody reads my journals. I am the center of attention. People follow in my footsteps. IgoUgo to me is, like, this thing that has given me an identity that makes me feel different than everything else in my life.” And I really love that, and I like building brands that are that important to people, that visceral to people. That is kind of a common theme in everything that I’ve done.

Brad Weimert: So, on the one hand, you can pick something that has inherent pull and interest and intrigue. On the other, it is still the responsibility of the CEO and company to create the community and the fire around it. What do you think the elements of that are, of establishing that excitement for a brand and culture, community, whatever, that can be applied to less exciting businesses? We don’t have to go all the way to accounting, but.

Jim Donnelly: Yeah. I did a bunch of real estate, and so you would think, “Okay, well, real estate’s totally different,” because you’re not kind of getting this sort of visceral thing and all that. But even there, you can tap into it. So, the real estate projects I did were… I did a real estate project in Charlotte that’s still the highest dollar per square foot real estate in the history of Charlotte and is still currently the highest dollar real estate. Well, why? Because it was going and buying this nationally historic old bank building and doing the exact opposite of what everyone else wanted to do with it. So, every real estate developer in Charlotte looked at this building, and they said, “How can we put as much in here as possible to maximize the dollars?”

The problem was there were 20 parking spots. No matter what you do, especially back in the day before the Ubers of the world and the Waymos of the world, like, you got to have a place to put your car if you’re going to do anything residential in that.

Brad Weimert: Still do.

Jim Donnelly: So, I think I’ve had a good ability to sort of look at it differently and do the exact opposite thing that other people would do. So, we put as little as possible in there. So, we made it a total of seven condos that were 7,000 square feet instead of trying to fit 60 condos that were a lot smaller. And then suddenly, 20 parking spots divided by seven, everybody has three. And it became the most special real estate that had ever sort of been developed. And then guys like Michael Jordan took the top floor. Cam Newton took the sixth floor. Daughtry took the fifth floor. The Cheerwine family, which is a very famous family in North Carolina, took the fourth floor. We got this amazing Brazilian restaurant concept to take the bottom two floors.

And suddenly that’s the coolest real estate project in Charlotte. Like I said, I’m good at that. I would never have been good at the, let’s go figure out how to put 60 people in this building. And so, I think that’s been part of my secret is just not trying to take the conventional wisdom and do it like everyone else. It’s like really finding something that’s going to resonate with people, that’s going to be done differently. And I think there’s a lot of parts of Humanaut that are different. I could talk about Restore that’s different. I could talk about IgoUgo, that’s different. When we did IgoUgo, everybody in the travel community, like the Frommers and the Conde Nasts of the world, we went to them to try and see if they’d invest.

They laughed at us. They said, “This is the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard. Like, real people are going to write about their travel, and other people are going to listen to that?” Now, today, you look at that, and you think, “Well, they were stupid.”

Brad Weimert: Yeah.

Jim Donnelly: But at the time, that’s just not the way it worked. And so, I fast-forward to Humanaut. I always say, “If you remember two words after this long conversation, remember the word guarantee and fun, and then riddle me if you’ve ever heard those words applied to a medical business before.” You haven’t. And so, we think differently. We try to do something that’s going to be very unique. It’s got to be done in a way that it’s interesting for people, super resonant, or else I’m probably not the right guy to do it. And then the mechanics of, well, if you’re building an online property, you have to have people that got expertise in that. So, I think I’m really good at then going and finding incredibly talented people who also are looking for something cool to tap into.

I think at the end of the day, if you have a cool concept that resonates with people, it’s not just your customers, it’s also employees. People are talented. I don’t know if they’re all creative. And so, if they can tap into something they feel like, “Man, that’s really cool,” you can go find incredible talent that’s going to be better than me, no matter what I do. And that’s what I think I do better than a lot of people.

Brad Weimert: Well, the talent hunt, I want to pin that because that’s a really interesting one, especially as you go across categories and you think about sort of responsibilities and values that you look for. But you hit on something that I noticed right away when I looked at your backdrop, which is, each of the categories that you’re in, and we’re going to have to define. We’ll talk a little bit about what IgoUgo was or is, but you hit on it. Each of them, you were really early to these things. And inherent in that is some level of education that you have to provide to people to explain what the thing is. So, you mentioned IgoUgo and going to the incumbent travel companies, which at the time, and these things still exist, are sending travel magazines out and saying, “Hey, look at these pretty pictures of places.” And your construct was user-generated content. And it was 2001 you started that?

Jim Donnelly: Yeah.

Brad Weimert: Right. I mean, like, this is on the tail end of the dot-com explosion, right? It took 30 seconds to download images on the internet, and like it was so early to do that. And today, as you pointed out, travel blogging and really now it’s vlogging or it’s YouTube channels that are posting videos, is everywhere, and everybody would love to do that for a living. This was a very, very, very early community doing that. First off, why do you find yourself getting into categories that are so early? And second, how do you think about the customer journey and experience as it pertains to educating in your marketing?

Jim Donnelly: Yeah. Well, I will say that although these were early in terms of the way we did it, these were not early categories. So, the travel category was massive.

Brad Weimert: Sure.

Jim Donnelly: And this idea of people journaling in the travel category was also massive. I mean, people have been journaling about their travels since Marco Polo back in ancient times. So, these were behaviors that existed. We were merely trying to find a better, more efficient way for them to do it. So, we weren’t trying to go do something that had no basis for… Like, building an incredibly new behavior in a brand-new category, that’s hard. Taking an existing category and finding existing behavior and simply twisting that into a new form factor or a new format, actually, I think, is significantly easier, and we have done that. I talked about the real estate in Charlotte.

We simply took this thing that was obvious, this beautiful building at Main and Main, and created a new way to look at it, but it was still real estate, which is a big category, and tons of demand for it, especially unique real estate. Humanaut, like… Or I’ll, I’ll go back to Restore. People trying to improve their performance, trying to recover faster, trying to get over achy joints and muscles, and all that, like, these things existed, and little tidbits of it existed. We just kind of took what was already out there and made it a little more efficient, put it together in a slightly different way, maybe talked about it a different way. Because if that didn’t exist, I don’t think we would’ve gotten the traction we did with Restore.

I say all the time, “You can be too early. You can be too late.” I’m pretty good at being early, but not too early. But I’m early in categories that are already really big, and there’s sort of signal there. Like, how many athletes had been doing cold plunges? How many people in the world were using saunas? I mean, there are population-level studies on saunas. But no one had kind of put it all together and brought some science to it and brought some rigor to it. But there was signal there, for sure. And so, I think I’m pretty good at finding big categories that can be tweaked, and there’s signal for the tweaks before we do it, but we are pretty early at kind of bringing it all together.

Brad Weimert: Yeah, I love that reframe. I mean, I like thinking about it that way. One of the difficult considerations, even if you’re tapping into a large existing pattern, is to change behavior and change the structure by which you tap into it, right, which you’ve done very well at. So, if we move through to Restore, because I think that’s a big chapter here, you had, this is my perception of Restore, and I’d love you to clear it up. But I went to Restore in Austin in probably 2016, maybe, and cryo, infrared light, compression boots, and it was sort of a recovery center. At that time, there weren’t places that you would go just to recover. You would find recovery maybe inside of some other gym ecosystem.

And so, the deliberate pattern, and this is just in my head, right? This is my construct. But the pattern that needed to be shifted in my head is to recondition people to say, “Hey, this is worth a dedicated trip to just go here and recover.”

Jim Donnelly: Yeah. Well, I would actually say it a little differently. We thought that it would be a recovery center. We thought that it would be for athletes that were training and wanted to recover faster, or wanted to get over little nicks and pains, and that sort of thing. The reality of it is that was like 20% of our business. The bigger unlock, and this is where you have to be open to signal, was that it was actually people that had other things, like all these mostly conditions that caused inflammation. So, whether it was fibromyalgia, whether it was rheumatoid arthritis, it was actually more of those people coming in because the cold had a really great impact. And so, we started to see early on, yeah, we’re getting athletes, but what we’re really getting are these people that have this other set of things, and there’s no good solution for them. Because the solutions, for instance, for joint pain…

Brad Weimert: Drugs.

Jim Donnelly: Drugs. And people were just…

Brad Weimert: Terrible solution.

Jim Donnelly: You could see the signal that people are over it. They want something different. And so, like I said, I went into it thinking we’re building a recovery business, but I was good at seeing that, oh, wait a minute, but the people actually coming and using it. And we created fun constructs. Like, I used to talk in the beginning, and I say this with all due respect, about this notion of housewife dangerous. And so, what does that mean? Well, housewives are kind of doing the most important job in the world. They’re raising kids. They probably feel underappreciated. No one’s sort of celebrating them for their job, which is you’re raising your kids. Go do it. But they still want to feel important, and they want to feel sexy, and they want to feel like strong and all that.

So, the idea was a housewife that would come in and freeze herself at negative 150 degrees for three minutes, that’s a different kind of woman. That’s a woman who’s confident, strong, and wants to show everybody and tell everybody. And so, we kind of played up those kind of concepts of like, “What you’re doing here is kind of a testament to the fact that you’re a little different than your typical housewife. You’re doing something that’s a little more provocative, dangerous. It wasn’t dangerous at all.

Brad Weimert: Sure.

Jim Donnelly: But we just played up these little things that tapped into a part of the brain that we knew would resonate with a lot of women. And so, we made sure that every woman who came in understood, “This is really cold. And the fact that you’re early and trying this, man, that is so cool. And let’s make sure we get a picture of this so you can share it on social media.” And we just kind of played that whole thing up. We did this concept in Charlotte that was called Emerson Joseph. It was a men’s grooming lounge, and we had a speakeasy in the bottom floor that people could rent out to watch games and play poker.

We played up this notion of banker dangerous, and so you had to come in after hours through a back alley, put in a code. We put bullet holes in the wall. We made it feel… You’d go downstairs, and it’s this kind of rough thing to get to it. And then you’d go through this next code, and you’d open up into this paradise of a speakeasy. But this notion of banker dangerous, we played up. Now, here was the funny thing. It was an alley between our building and a Federal Reserve property. It was literally one of the safest alleys in all of America. There was nothing dangerous about it at all. But we played up this sort of thing that I’m a banker, my job’s kind of boring, I don’t do exciting stuff. Now I’m coming to the speakeasy, and I’m coming back to this back alley. So, I’ve just tried to find ways to tap into things that are going to give it a little bit of a boost, so to speak.

Brad Weimert: So, when I hear that, I’m sort of perpetually stuck in this frame of client experience. What is the client experience end-to-end from the moment they hear about us to beyond the deliverable to a year past the initial deliverable? The examples that I just heard were part of the client experience, fundamentally, right, these little things where you had deliberate messaging for an avatar. How much of this was the client experience, and how much was external marketing to drive those people in?

Jim Donnelly: Listen, we did very little marketing in the beginning of Restore. I always say a lack of options provides clarity, and we bootstrapped Restore. We didn’t have a lot of money for marketing. We weren’t sophisticated enough to know how to do great digital marketing, and so we had to rely on a lot of word of mouth. We did a lot of sort of partnerships with other complementary businesses. So, we kind of did this sort of guerrilla marketing, word-of-mouth thing really well. Now, we had a couple of advantages, and I think these advantages weren’t lucky. You build a business around certain things, and the advantage that we had at Restore was our construct was simple.

Every customer should walk out the door feeling better than they walked in. Well, when you’re doing cold and light and heat, and especially when you’re starting to stack them, you’re guaranteed to send people out the door feeling better than they walked in. So, we had this sort of, like, foundational advantage that if people would come in, they would feel better, and if we gave them a little bit of the right encouragement and incentives, they would then go tell a bunch of people, and that was enough. It was certainly enough in the beginning. Now, when you’re at 200 locations around the country, but by then, you get super sophisticated. You have a whole marketing team. Your options now are much different than they were when you were bootstrapping this thing with four locations in sort of Austin and Charlotte.

And so, in the beginning, we just had these inherent functional advantages that it was next to impossible for someone to have a bad experience and not feel better than they felt. Humanaut’s the same way. We have the same philosophy. You walk out the door feeling better than when you walked in. And you might be in Humanaut for three hours. As a matter of fact, you might do some very unpleasant things because we’re doing things like VO2 max and all that. But if we feel like you’re going to walk out the door not feeling better than when you walked in, we have a series of little hacks, little things that we can do, certain modalities that we can put you in that we know you’re going to walk out feeling better than when you walked in.

And that is now a philosophy that has been operationalized. And so, you don’t just… Nothing’s arbitrary. It’s a system. We operationalize everything. It’s based on these things that we know are going to make people feel better, so that we can live up to our philosophy, you always walk out the door feeling better. And then that always walk out the door feeling better feeds into this even bigger concept of we want to get people in this virtuous cycle of the more you do, the better you feel, the better you feel, the more you do. Well, to ever get to that really virtuous part of the cycle, you’ve got to do it in a small way that first time, and then the second time, and the third time.

And now suddenly people are stacking it, and now, okay, now we got them. We got them in this virtuous cycle. So, you just got to recognize when you have advantages like that you can tap into, and then you’ve got to not make it arbitrary. You’ve got to systematize it, operationalize it, and I think we’ve done a good job of doing that.

Brad Weimert: Yeah, but I think that’s exactly what I was getting at, which is that you said you have to operationalize, you have to systemize it. Yes, you might have had an inherent advantage is what you said, which is that the nature of the business was that you were going to have a state change when you left, right, both Humanaut and Restore. But you also said some of these things are going to be unpleasant. And so, I think the opportunity in the game of business, and you’ve done this very well from my perspective, is to try to take lessons from other spaces and apply them to your own. Because on some level, business is business is business, right? So, in the case of an unpleasant experience, and I would argue that cold and heat can both be really unpleasant. And honestly, to most people, they are certainly in the beginning.

Jim Donnelly: But you got to change your frame of reference. So once again…

Brad Weimert: But that’s exactly it. That’s exactly where I was going, which is that you chose to have these operational elements through that process to say, “Hey,” and maybe it’s as simple as your staff saying, “When they get out, applaud them for doing it.” And that changes it from it just being painful to it being rewarding because they went through the pain.

Jim Donnelly: Well, I would also say this: things like cold therapy they’re not for everybody. And so, if you’re trying to please everybody, you’re also going to fail. I always say I would much rather have a set of customers that love what we do than have three times the number of customers who like what we do. Because the customers who like what you do are ephemeral. They’re not as loyal. They can be pulled into other things. They kind of go with the trends and the times. But the customers that love you will stick with you. And so, we do all kinds of things to kind of weed out the people that are going to be avid customers and ones that aren’t.

So, for instance, at Humanaut, we’re launching a guarantee. In order to get that guarantee, you have to sign two things. The first thing you have to sign is the Humanaut pledge. It is a very detailed articulation of what Humanaut is, how we do things in terms of practicing medicine, how you should think about it, and what you’re signing up for. So, the first thing we do is kind of set your frame of reference. And it’s different. We’re proactive, we’re preventative, we try new things, blah, blah, more importantly, make people sign the accountability protocol. The accountability protocol is you are signing up to have to do certain things. Otherwise, you don’t get our guarantee. So, what are those things? You’ve got to wear wearables, because we’re going to set goals with you, and you got to hit those goals 80% of the time, and if you don’t wear wearables, how are we going to track those goals? So, those two things go hand in hand.

You have to see our team once a month. How many people go to the doctor that they have and see them once a month? Hardly anybody. So, this is a commitment. You’re going to have to actually commit to coming in. Now, why do we do that? Because our team needs to create a level of engagement. We need to calibrate, recalibrate, adjust, because that was part of the Humanaut pledge. We are constantly iterating. We are constantly adjusting. We are constantly trying new things to get the best results. And I could go on and on about how this Humanaut pledge and this accountability protocol played off of each other.

But a lot of people look at that, and they go, “Well, I don’t agree with how you guys practice medicine,” or, “I don’t agree to wearing a wearable where you track my every move, and you track my sleep, and you track my food and my cortisol levels. I don’t agree with that.” Great. There’s lots of places for you. I’m not trying to please everybody. I’m trying to please people who get that what we’re trying to do is different. We’re going to get different results, and I think better results. And in order for us to get that, you got to be a part of it. And there are a lot of things out there Pharmaceuticals, it’s the opposite. Come in, no discussion, very little agency on the part of the patient. Here’s your bottle of pills.

You will feel different after you take a pain pill than before you take a pain pill. But I would say that is an entirely sort of… That would never be something we would do at Humanaut. And so, if that’s what you want, quick pill, easy pill, great. There’s plenty of options for you. But if you want to go deep and to get great results and to have some agency and have a real relationship with your care providers and know when things are working and know that people are adjusting, then come to Humanaut. It’s a totally different mindset. Those people love what we do, whereas nobody… So, that’s the example, like traditional doctors have lots of patients. They actually have a lot of patients that don’t even like what they do. We have fewer patients that love what we do and love how we do it. I’d much rather have that dynamic.

Brad Weimert: Well, the takeaway for me in that is in how you operationalize those things. Right? And some of that was in the beginning, setting the expectations and creating a frame of accountability to make sure that that sticks so that you can deliver the experience that you want to deliver.

Jim Donnelly: You got to also overcome objections, not just in the world, but in your own team. Like, I’ve got high-level doctors. You mentioned that you know Amy. Dr. Amy Killen. She’s one of the most world-renowned doctors when it comes to women’s health and hormones. And so, once again, it’s not an accident that Amy’s on our team. I think given my pedigree and given my philosophy and how I create culture, you have to have all those in place before you can go get someone in the caliber of Amy. But I will tell you this. When you get someone in the caliber of Amy, careful what you ask for because Amy is a strong woman, a strong doctor. She has her ideas of how things should work. And so, when you start introducing something new, like a guarantee for results, Amy’s not just going to say, “Awesome.”

No, let me rephrase it. Amy is going to say, “Well, intellectually awesome, but pragmatically, how the hell is that going to work?” And so, you’ve got to overcome these objections. You do have to sort of aim high. And I always say my philosophy is I’d rather aim for Mars and hit the Moon than say our goal is the Moon and hit the upper atmosphere. So, it’s like you got to put these sort of things way out there. It’s why I don’t think I’d be a particularly good guy for a public company, because I am going to sort of aim high, high, high. And if you don’t quite get there, you’re still way higher than you would’ve been if you had normal expectations.

And so, I’ve had to kind of push that dynamic and have folks like Amy, who intellectually, like I said, are cool, awesome, I’m on board, but we got to really think about this. because I’m a real doctor. We’re practicing real medicine here, and this idea of a guarantee. And then I got my general counselor, “Guarantee? Come on, we can’t guarantee medical.” You know, like, well, if you look at our data and you look at the results we get, we do see a pattern, which is that we get great results when these things happen, so why can’t we guarantee it? So, we’ve just tried to be a little different.

Brad Weimert: Well, I want to get back to Humanaut because I think that general business, there are also some significant fundamental structural differences between that and Restore. But for the business case of this, and I think maybe you had raised a little bit of money before you got to 115 stores? But you had the big raise at 115.

Jim Donnelly: Yeah, we bootstrapped it in the beginning. I had one partner, and he was my partner up until the end, and we sort of had a little bit of a slight disagreement on how to view the world, and that’s okay. But in the beginning, we bootstrapped it. I did the work. He provided some capital. Then we went to a second phase, which was, like, friends and family, small amounts of money, nobody sophisticated, just people we knew. Then we did a little private equity round of about $10 million at a $70 million valuation. And then pretty quickly after that, 18 months later, we did the big $140 million round. Because at that point, it had just become obvious that we needed to go faster and could go faster and all of that.

But I will say Humanaut and Restore are fundamentally different, and if you don’t change based on knowledge that you have, then I don’t think you’re a particularly good businessperson. The things I loved about Restore was that there was real signal about things like hot and cold and light, and there was clearly a lot of people interested in it. Good science behind it. Like I said, in the case of saunas, for instance, population-level science. And so, okay, I know that if we put this together the right way, create the right brand, create the right atmosphere, this is going to work. It didn’t take a genius to see that. Now, there were a few fundamental problems with Restore, and I say that as the third-largest shareholder at Restore today. So, I don’t mean any of this in a negative sort of sense. It’s just the reality.

Number one problem was we lost our best customers too soon or too easily. And it wasn’t because they didn’t love Restore, it was that at some point, if you’re doing all 10 modalities in Restore, and you’re spending X amount of dollars, you wake up and say, “Well, wait a minute.”

Brad Weimert: “Why don’t I buy it myself?”

Jim Donnelly: “Why don’t I just get a sauna?” “Why don’t I just get red light panels?” “Why don’t I get…” And so, you would see it all the time. This customer who loved Restore and had a great experience at Restore, you would lose them because they would go… And you could even have a nurse come to your home. Like, at some point, it was just I’d never liked…

Brad Weimert: That’s the direction I went.

Jim Donnelly: Yeah. I’ve never liked a business where, when you have the happiest, best customer, they have an incentive to leave you. That’s a flawed dynamic, number one. Number two, as much work as we put in the brand and all the other things that made Restore different, and the medical infrastructure, it is a guy in sweatpants business. Like, if you want to go set up cryo and red light and sauna and all that, you might not be sophisticated at it, you might not be great at it, but you can turn it into a job, and you can open up your own clinic. And now, Restore is competing with hundreds of these folks around them. So, I didn’t think there was enough of a competitive moat.

And then the third problem, which is the subtle one where I say Humanaut and Restore are very different, is Restore is not the stuff. It’s the stuff before the stuff. And so, I think sleep and movement and stress reduction, these things are the stuff. And so, movement, for instance, Restore doesn’t replace movement. Restore gets you so you’re not sore, so that you’re recovered, so that you can then go do the stuff. I’d rather be doing the things that matter than the things that prime you for the things that matter. And so, as much as I love cold and all those sort of things, people would conflate the two all the time and say, “Hey, you get your workout in?” “Nah, but I did do cryo and this and that.” And they would think that was it. Like, no, that’s not it. That’s just a piece of it. Now you’ve got to go do the real things.

And now, that’s being a little unfair, because some of the stuff at Restore is the real thing. Like, it is the stuff that helps you sleep, and it is the stuff that lowers your cortisol levels. It is the stuff that helps you relax. So, there is definitely a component of that, but the reality of it is I love Humanaut because… And by the way, people think that Humanaut’s all this super expensive, interesting, cool, rich guy stuff, like stem cells.

Brad Weimert: Some of it is.

Jim Donnelly: And some of it absolutely is. But at our foundation, we are doing the real stuff. Like, for every customer that comes in, we want to help you with your movement, we want to help you with your nutrition, we want to help you with your sleep, stress reduction, and cognitive health. We do way more work on getting those five things right than we do getting you stem cells or getting you therapeutic plasma exchange. Those things are all great, and there’s a place for them, and there’s a time for them, but they don’t work as well until you’ve taken care of the foundational things. So, much, much more of our work is about those foundational things than people give us credit for sometimes, because they want to go straight to the, like, “Man, I would love to get resveratrol,” or, “I’d love to… Can you get me this GLP-1?” and all that.

It’s like, “Yeah, we can, but I don’t think that’s where you should start.” Like, that’s not the problem. And if you start there and you haven’t done this other stuff, it’s like pissing in the wind. Like, it’s not going to be a big enough impact for you. So, let’s start at this other place, and let’s work our way towards there.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. Well, I have a tremendous amount of interest in all the above, from the… You know, I look at sort of the sauna, the cold, etcetera, as a lot of the times addressing the symptom and not the cause, right? And so, when you say it’s not the stuff, that’s how I heard it, right? It’s addressing the symptom. Now, as you also pointed out, there are thousands of years of data, hundreds probably, on saunas and the benefit to it. And you can directly connect it to treatment for metal, mold, other things, it flushes your system, and longevity, and all sorts of stuff. So, I want to talk about that, but the business mechanics of the two are fundamentally different, too, right?

So, Restore, I’m going to guess, but I want the actual numbers here. So, I’m going to guess you’ve got a $150 to $250 monthly average ticket for your customers. And you probably know the longevity of a given subscription. What were those numbers? And let’s start there.

Jim Donnelly: If you think of just, in general, the construct of Restore, there’s a dollar per month, per member, per customer that you’re getting to. And let’s just use a range. Let’s say $100 to $300 is a pretty good range. And so, on the low end, $100, on the high end, $300. And then you want to, whenever you can, get a member so that that’s recurring. But either way, you have to have a certain number of customers come in each month. So, just let’s take another range, 500 to 1,000 people come in a month. So, if you have 500 to 1,000 people coming in a month, spending $100 to $300, you can kind of figure out the range of what the Restore business looks like.

It’s basically on the low end, and I would say that would be if you were low end on both of those numbers, you probably have an unsuccessful Restore. If you’re high-end on both of those numbers, you have a very successful Restore. So, most of them fit in the middle. And so, once again, in the middle of that, you got a business that’s creating a little over a million dollars in revenue, up to $2.5 million in revenue. Pretty high margins, and so that’s a good business, especially if you open hundreds of them.

Brad Weimert: Yep. Reasonable upfront cost, right? You’ve got some equipment to buy. Not horrible, but probably.

Jim Donnelly: Some equipment to buy, but you can lease it. So, you can be capital efficient about how you do it. I think what happened at Restore was when we first started opening locations, you could get in all-in to a Restore for around 750K. That included the upfit, that included the equipment, that included some working capital, launch budget, and all that sort of thing. Now, over time, because of COVID and other factors, we started to get to the point where it was closer to $2 million. I think it was like $1.5 million to $1.8 million.

Brad Weimert: What caused that?

Jim Donnelly: Space started getting bigger because we started adding more things. Construction costs went through the roof. Employee costs went through the roof, like the cost of some of the staff like nurses, because of all the dynamics of hospitals paying nurses during COVID. So, everything just went through the roof. Now, a lot of that stuff’s come back down, and it’s kind of been optimized, but it did become a very different thing, and so you had less margin for error. Like, if you weren’t really good at it and you had to spend that much money to open it, that could be a problem for an operator that wasn’t, like, on it all the time. And to be quite frank, that was a hard dynamic for me.

Number one, a lot of these people were my friends. In the beginning, we had this construct, if you had to be a West Point grad to be an early Restore franchisee, and that was because my wife went to West Point. And so, by definition, a lot of these people were people that knew her or were friends of hers or were people that she cared about. And then we sort of expanded into two or three other criteria for being able to do, but then suddenly a lot of them became my friends, and so I really cared about, like, what happened to these people. And so, that’s a lot of pressure because when you’re starting to put $1.8 million, for a lot of folks, that’s like their life savings.

And so, you’ve got to be a pretty horrible human to not have that touch your psyche both in a good way or a bad way. Like, a good way when they’re thriving and making a ton of money, and you’ve changed their life. And a bad way when they’re just not equipped for it for whatever reason, it doesn’t work, and now, that can be a bad outcome.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. I mean, I think that I leave a lot of space for ignorance and lack of self-awareness as opposed to malice in those situations. So, I think there are a lot of…

Jim Donnelly: Like, there was zero malice.

Brad Weimert: No, no, I get it. I’m just saying that you said you’d have to be a pretty terrible human. And what I actually, how I feel about that in general is the same way as you, but I also see a lot of entrepreneurs just struggle. And so, I see a lot of people, and I think in those situations it’s not that they’re bad people, it’s that they’re trying to get through it themselves, and they think they have a model. But to your point, if somebody sinks 1.8 million in and the business model isn’t great, I mean, look, the world is full of people selling franchises that aren’t awesome. And replace the word franchise with anything else. Selling a product that’s really expensive for somebody that’s not awesome. And I don’t know where the line is, but.

Jim Donnelly: Yes. And to be clear, I think Restore is and was and will always be a great idea, a great concept, and a good business for the right person. And that for the right person is a big caveat, and it’s one that applies to any entrepreneurial thing. And people always ask me about the advice, like, “Should you follow your passion?” I said, “Well, that’s a loaded question. You should follow your passion if your passion is something that a lot of people care about and you’re good at it, and a couple of other things. But if you’re not good at it and people don’t care about it, and you can’t attract a lot, like don’t do it. Like, it could be the worst advice in the world: follow your passion. So, I’m always nuanced about that.

Now, to flip from Restore to Humanaut, I did take all of those lessons at Restore and said, “Okay, I don’t want to be the thing before the thing. I want to have a level of complexity around this that it was more defensible.” I wanted to have higher dollar, higher, better economics, so to speak, in the business. And so, they’re fundamentally different. And so, first of all, it’s a very complex business. Number one, functional medicine is a very complex thing to practice because it’s kind of an N of one approach. Everyone’s different. Everything’s personalized. It’s all root cause. It’s not managing the symptoms. It’s figuring out what’s causing the symptoms and fixing that. And when you sort of do that, it’s pretty complex.

And you’ve got to put all kinds of things in place to make sure that you’ve got the right level of medical staff that can do the things that need to be done, and you’ve got to have all the tools, massive amounts of technology, tons of AI enablement. Lots of things you have to put in place that manage the complexity, but you better come pretty strong for a business like Humanaut. I don’t think most people could handle the complexity. I don’t think they could manage through the complexity. I don’t think they can create a business model where the actual franchisee is only doing the things that they’re capable of doing while the corporate entity does the much harder, complex things.

But we have solved that, and we have done it. And so, as a consequence of that, we also have a much bigger business. Like a Humanaut clinic’s a $10 million clinic. And so, we’re good at opening these now. We’ve got a playbook. We’ve got all the tech stack type of support behind the scenes that makes it work. We’ve got an interesting coaching platform. We’ve built a beautiful brand. We’ve got this notion of be a Humanaut and that being something you want to tap into and be a part of. And I could go on and on, but it’s an entirely different business. And we have memberships that are very different than Restore. We have the memberships that are…

Brad Weimert: Radically.

Jim Donnelly: Radically different. On the low end, we do have a membership that’s roughly $200 a month. But on the high end, we also have a $65,000 a year membership. Totally different memberships. But what I would say is that in both, you get a tremendous amount of value. No matter what membership you do at Humanaut, there are going to be a large number of diagnostics, particularly when you say relatively speaking. So, compared to the functions and the superpowers and all of the blood test-only virtual offerings, we’re always going to have more. And so, we’re always going to have their same level of the blood panel type testing, plus some in-person physical diagnostics, DEXA scan, VO2 max, carotid artery scan, for around the same price.

So, because we’re an omni-channel approach as opposed to the clinic, the virtual, we can just give a lot more, and I think we’ve done a good job of that. But it’s always going to have a large amount of diagnostics because you can’t create great medical outcomes without data and data-driven dynamics. Like, it’s one of the other things I’d say about Restore. Restore is kind of more akin to the biohacking world, where it’s like cold is good for everybody, and this temperature of cold is good for everybody, and this duration is good for everybody, and this level of heat and this amount of heat, like it is kind of a one-size-fits-all type of thing, and they’re not doing diagnostics that tell you, “Well, your dose should be this. Your dose should be that.”

I think generally speaking, hot and cold is pretty good for everybody, but not universally. And more is not always better. Colder is not always better. Duration matters, and so you got to be a little more sophisticated than that. At Humanaut, we don’t make any decisions without data. We’re going to look at your blood panels. We have 75 other bespoke diagnostics, genetic testing, gut testing, brain EEGs, full body MRIs, DEXA scans, movement analysis, and I could keep going on. There’s nothing that can be tested that we don’t offer if you need it to be tested for us to get a full picture of your health. And so, obviously, when you get into those level of diagnostics, you’re going to start to increase what it costs to do all of that.

And then the other big differentiator is the care team that you receive. So, at the lowest level membership, you’re going to get a nurse practitioner supported by a medical assistant and obviously has the system behind her and the doctors behind them helping. But at the top level, you get a six-person care team. You get a world-class longevity doctor. He’s got a medical support team under him handling a lot of the logistics. You’ve got a movement coach, a nutrition coach, a sleep coach, a stress coach. You’ve got a concierge who handles all the logistics. You do a massive number of diagnostics, and you do them again and again and again so that we’re always calibrating and improving.

And so, it’s just a very different animal, and we’re unapologetic about our high-end membership costing that much because the results we get are unbelievable. And we get really hard cases. We get people who come in with autoimmune issues. “I’ve tried everything.” Lyme’s disease, “I’ve tried everything.” You know, I could go on and on. Like, really, really significant heart issues, and they’re not making progress. Metabolic dysfunction, the stat I use the most is 87% of the clients who come to us with metabolic dysfunction, so pre-diabetes or diabetes, within six months, they show zero sign of metabolic dysfunction.

So, when you can move that big problem to that degree, you have a really good business. Now, I know I’m going to have a lot of those customers because 70% of Americans have metabolic dysfunction of some kind, and half of them don’t even know it. And so, that’s a pretty big feeder for what we do. And so, we’re solving big problems, real medical problems, and people, when you get them to think about it in the right way, are quite okay with leaning in and coming out of pocket and spending money on these things.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. I mean, there’s no question that there’s a market for the super high-end, cutting-edge concierge approach to medicine. And the complexity of that for you went through a whole bunch of stuff just now in terms of what you offer. But for the frame for, I think, anybody listening that has a business, one of the transitional elements from Restore to Humanaut from a business model perspective is you open the door to have a $65,000 a year membership. And with that, there are a bunch of expensive items, but also with that, there’s opportunity for margin. And you’re also narrowing into a different way to sell and a different client base. Right?

Jim Donnelly: There are multiple businesses within Humanaut. That concierge business is a completely different business than a $200 a month business run by a nurse practitioner and all. They’re diametrically different businesses. They’re both medical. They’re both getting good results. They both start with diagnostics. They both have care plans that cover all the foundational things. But you sell them differently. You staff them differently. You support them with technology differently. And that was a really hard thing for us because most of the longevity, “longevity businesses,” they only do the high end. And so, they only do one type of business. But we did make a fundamental decision in the beginning that I would not compromise a few of my values.

One value is that I ultimately am interested in democratizing longevity and health optimization. And so, the day that a schoolteacher can have all the things that a rich guy can have, I will have accomplished my goal. By the way, we’re there. Like, I would say that at some of our lower-priced memberships, anybody can afford them. I would even say some of our “higher priced” things like stem cells, anyone can afford them. They might not be able to afford like a full body stem cell makeover where you’re doing your hair, your skin, your penis, every one of your joints, two injections in every one of your discs in your back. And when I say joints, I mean fingers, toes, you know. That’s a high-ticket item.

But we had a fireman come in, and it’s one of my favorite stories from the last few weeks, and he said, “Listen, I can’t work. My back is to the point that I can’t do my job. More importantly, my identity. My identity is I’m an active physical human. I can’t play beach volleyball. I can’t do any of these sorts of things. I’ve investigated all these things. I can’t afford to go to Panama and Colombia. By the way, I don’t feel comfortable doing it even if I could. And so, what can you do for me?” And I said, “Listen, we can focus on your back, just do back injections. You don’t have to travel. We can do everything here in the United States that you can do in any of these other countries,” which is one of the big myths of stem cells, that you have to go outside of the United States to get the best stuff. That’s silly.

And so, we can make it digestible for, “Now, it’s still going to be a bit of a choice for you.” In his case, it was a $5,000 procedure. “And I know $5,000 seems like a lot for a fireman, but it’s a lot better than the $25,000 options you were looking at. It’s a lot better than pain medicine that you know is going to end badly. It’s a lot better than your alternatives, so can you do it? And by the way, we can do it over time, and we can help you with that.” And that guy said yes, and if you talk to him today, the one we just did was a month ago, but our very first fireman was about two and a half years ago. To this day, he still sends me letters every other month that says, “Still great, still perfect, no back pain. My life is better than it’s ever been. Thank you.” I get letters from him all the time.

Brad Weimert: Yeah, I love that. And I mean, I can see the through line from Restore to this logically. As a businessperson, economically, what’s your ambition with Humanaut, and where did you leave Restore? Because raising $140 million that late in the game, when you have 115 stores, I have to imagine you took money off the table with that raise.

Jim Donnelly: Yeah, I took a little bit of money off the table. My life is good. I’ve had some exits, whether it was IgoUgo, whether it’s taking some money off the table at Restore, I will say I’m good. I wish I’d taken more money off the table. What I have now come to realize that if you raise that much money from a private equity group, even if it’s a minority investment, they own you. They have big preferences, and a lot of people don’t know what a preference means, but it basically means if they invest $140 million, that if they have to go raise more money or sell, they get the first 140, and that grows over time for a variety of reasons. And so, at this point today, Restore would have to be sold for a big chunk of money for me to ever see a penny.

And so, because of that, if you ever have to raise money after that big round, if General Atlantic, for instance, doesn’t want to put money into the next round, nobody will. Because, like, you have all the skin in the game. You have the preferences. So, if you’re not the one that’s going to put another 50, 100 million in, well, I’m sure not, because you know more than I know. And so, indirectly, they basically have you, the old saying, they have you by the balls, so to speak. And I don’t know that I like that dynamic.

Brad Weimert: I certainly don’t.

Jim Donnelly: I don’t. And I’m a builder, not an optimizer. And I also was really good at growth, and at a time when growth was the goal versus profitability. And we literally raised, in December of ’21, got that money. In literally the January of ’22, the world changed. And then the interest rates changed, and the world became profitability, not growth. And so, in a way, that kind of made me step back. It made General Atlantic step back. We had a very rational, mature conversation that said, “Hey, are you the right person for this next phase and what we’re going to have to do?” And my partner and I also kind of went sideways. I thought he sort of lost his way around what we were trying to do and why we were trying to do it.

He would probably spin it a little differently and say that I was trying to be rational and think of the sort of financial outcome. But all of that kind of goes into a blender, and you say, “Okay, I’m good. I’m going to go do something else. And you guys are General Atlantic. Go bring some really good new guy in and go make this thing awesome. And I’ll ride with you because I still am a big shareholder.” And that’s what happened. And it’s the best thing that ever happened to me, because I would not have been good being at a place where I couldn’t continue to evolve and just try stuff, you know? That was not where we were at that time. It was like, “Nope, we’re not going to try any new things. We’re just going to be good at the things that we have.” And to be quite frank, they haven’t innovated in three, four years. Like, the same things that were there when I left are still there.

Brad Weimert: No. Private equity wasn’t innovative and cutting-edge.

Jim Donnelly: Yeah, the whole private equity dynamic, good and bad, I have a ton of respect for General Atlantic. But you just got to know what you’re getting into. And I say private equity, if you use the animal analogy, they’re wolves. Just unambiguously, they’re wolves. And you just got to know what a wolf is, and you got to know how a wolf thinks, and you got to know what motivates a wolf. And it doesn’t mean that it’s bad that they’re wolves. It just means that’s who you are now partnered with. Wolves have to eat. Wolves have to do all these things. Okay. You know? I chose it. And I probably was a little naive about some of it, but it’s okay. I would still recommend them in the right cases. A lot of smart people. Their motivations and their sort of compass is a little different than mine. I know that better now.

To be quite frank, I’m not motivated by money. I have a whole different currency in my life. I have a perfect life. Perfect. Now, when I say that, it doesn’t mean that I don’t have hard things, doesn’t mean that when my partner and I sort of went sideways, that didn’t hurt me. But what I mean by a perfect life is I’ve got all the things in place that allow me to handle things like that. I have this woman I’ve been married to for 20 years, I still call my girlfriend. I got two of the most amazing kids who have thrived in every way, academically, socially, athletically. I’ve got great friends. I’ve got a business with purpose. I’ve got a family that loves me, and I love them. And so, the money part is actually the least of what I worry about at this point.

Now, I always say to people, “That’s easy to say when you have money.” Rich guys can say, “Oh, money doesn’t motivate me.” But it is true. I’m not really motivated by that.

Brad Weimert: Yeah. Well, it is critically important to hear your experience and that raise both during it, after, why you did it, what you got out of it, what you would’ve done different, for all the entrepreneurs that come after you. Because people do go into it a blind. They are naive. They don’t know what to expect. They are blindsided.

Jim Donnelly: And I will tell you this, that much money will change some people. Once again, I say about my ex-partner, I want him to eat, just not at my table. We’re different humans, and that’s okay. We had a 10-year relationship. That’s more than most marriages. And so, I tend to focus on the good of that 10 years, not the breakup. But once again, it’s a lesson for entrepreneurs. Understand a few things. Understand who you’re getting into bed with from the private equity side, And understand what they need, what motivates them, and how that’s going to work, and what all these little things you’ve never heard of, like preferences, do mean. Expect that amount of money to change people.

Like, I feel like I did not recognize the human across the table from me when we were going through some of that, and that’s like, that’s okay. You’re a different human than me. You have different motivations. You have your own reasons. Your reasons may or may not be better or worse than my reasons, but that’s a lot of money, and it absolutely will change people. So, you’ve got to be prepared for that, and then you’ve got to be prepared to walk away, like, if you have to, and then go do it again. And for me, that’s always been pretty easy, and it was the most freeing thing I’ve ever had happen to me. I got some money, to your point, took some money off the table. Like I said, I wish I’d taken a little more.

I had a period of time where all I had to do was think about what was next. I had some real motivation for it because my dad had just died of cancer, and I really felt strongly that if I had had something like Humanaut, we could’ve saved him because we would’ve caught his cancer at stage one. So, I was, in sort of a personal way, ready to move on from Restore anyway. I got run over by a drunk driver toward the end of my time at Restore, going 65 through a red light. I’m 65 through a green light. Destroyed me, my neck, and everything, and it was stem cells that brought me back. And so, I had money and access to all the experts in the world, and the only thing that helped me in my case was stem cells.

So, between my dad dying of cancer, the private equity thing, and getting run over by a car and struggling with that, like, I had real drive to go figure out what was next. And so, that was kind of the tailwind that kept me, to your point in our earlier discussion, like super focused, super motivated, super driven, and it’s all kind of fallen into place.

Brad Weimert: That’s beautiful. Well, where do you want to point people to find out more about you or Humanaut?

Jim Donnelly: Yeah. Well, number one, if you’re a woman over 40, I would start by following Amy Killen on Instagram. You can obviously also follow Humanaut Health. You can follow us on all the social channels. You can go to humanauthealth.com. And we hope to see as many people as possible. We’re doing things in a different way. I think we’re getting better results. I think we’re making the whole dynamic of healthcare more engaging, more fun, giving people more agency.  Now, it’s just the beginning. We will have 100 locations. You heard it here. In four years, we will have 100 locations around the United States under the Humanaut umbrella.

Brad Weimert: Amazing. Jim, thanks so much for the time, man.

Jim Donnelly: All right. Thank you. Thank you. It was a pleasure.