200: No Bullsh*t Sales Advice from a High-Ticket Insurance Advisor ft. Corey Lilburn – 8FE

What if you could close high-value clients… without pitching, posturing, or even talking about what you sell?

This week’s guest, Corey Lilburn, is a senior consultant and shareholder at Acrisure, a $35B global insurance and fintech firm. From selling Cutco knives to advising enterprise clients, Corey’s success comes from mastering the timing, psychology, and nuance of complex sales. 

Corey shares the real sales skills that matter in today’s market, the habits that create consistent closers, how to make renewals a non-event, and why self-funding might make sense sooner than you think. He also shares what Mark Cuban is getting right about pharma… and how a Sinatra impersonator helped him close a major deal.

Plus, we dig into the evolution of Bay Area Advisors and how their Martinis for Moffitt event has raised over $4 million for cancer research.

If you’re selling high-ticket services or navigating long sales cycles, this one’s packed with real strategies that actually work.

Tune in and learn how to sell anything to anyone.

Inspiring Quotes

• “I’m not selling insurance. My clients already have insurance. It’s unlikely that I’ll go to an employer with several hundred employees and find they don’t have it. So, the job isn’t to sell insurance; it’s to replace the advisor they already have.” – Corey Lilburn
• “The less I talk about insurance, and the more I focus on who I am, who my team is, and what we bring to the table, the easier it is to close the deal.” – Corey Lilburn
• “The renewal needs to be made a non-event. If you focus on selling the renewal, then you’re considering losing that client.” – Corey Lilburn
• “The longer I’m in sales, the more I appreciate a quick no over a drawn-out maybe.” – Corey Lilburn
• “Grind like your tomorrow depends on it.” – Corey Lilburn
• “It’s not the company that’s your client. It’s the decision-maker inside it.” – Corey Lilburn

• 00:00:00 Intro
• 00:01:37 Essential skills for mastering sales
• 00:05:03 How AI will impact insurance in the next 5 years 
• 00:07:08 The challenges of risk assessment 
• 00:09:17 Sales cycles and client relationships in insurance 
• 00:22:18 Can you make insurance less boring?
• 00:23:41 Renewal vs. assumptive close
• 00:28:23 Keeping healthcare costs down 
• 00:40:45 Self-insurance and level funding 
• 00:53:38 Selling insurance companies to bigger insurance companies
• 01:06:26 Bay Area Advisors and Martinis for Moffitt
• 01:20:42 Advice for aspiring entrepreneurs 
• 01:24:35 Outro

Corey Lilburn 0:00
I’m not selling insurance. My client already has insurance. It would be very rare for me to go to an employer of several 100 employees and find that they don’t have anything. Almost all the time, it’s coming in to replace an advisor who isn’t necessarily on a watch the way that they should have been at one point in time. My dad described it back to me as you’re kind of an assassin, and you have to come in to get somebody else totally fired. I’m like,

Brad Weimert 0:22
Yeah, Dad, you Congrats on getting beyond a million. What got you here won’t always get you there. This is a podcast for entrepreneurs who want to reach beyond their seven figure business and scale to eight, nine and even 10 figures. I’m Brad weimert, and as the founder of easy pay direct, I have had the privilege to work with more than 30,000 businesses, allowing me to see the data behind what some of the most successful companies on the planet are doing differently. Join me each week as I dig in with experts in sales, marketing, operations, technology and wealth building, and you’ll learn some of the specific tools, tactics and strategies that are working today in those multi million, eight, nine and 10 figure businesses, life can get exciting beyond a million Corey, low burn. I have known you for way too long. You were one of the few people I know that I can say I’ve known him for 25 years. Yes, we’re coming up on 30, buddy. We’re getting old, insane every five year chunk, I feel like I’m old. Yeah, we’re just a number, yeah, I know I like it. So I met you in Cutco, yeah. So we both grew up in Cutco together. You were my first Cutco manager. Yes, you went on to become a partner and Insurance Agency, which then rolled up to a behemoth Insurance Agency, which you are now employed by as a more pro stooge. We’ll talk about sales is a super competitive trait, super competitive skill to learn. Moving from tangible to intangible is definitely a topic I want to cover, because sales as a as a profession, I think, has a lot a lot of facets, but I want to start with kind of the building blocks for becoming a professional, which are, what skills did you learn in Cutco that became transferable in insurance sales? Yeah,

Corey Lilburn 2:04
I think that’s great, and I think I’m glad you brought that up. Should we talk about the fact that the first training class you had a hoodie on? Do you remember that sat in the front row with a hoodie on it? I do remember. I think you’re an 18 year old kid at that point in time, so I was probably hot. It’s fair shot. And call me a stooge, yeah, but I think there are there lists that we learned there and that you took to the next level more so than most people, which is why you had such great success as an individual there. We talked about things like attitude being a big deal, right? And when you’re 18, it’s easy to get distracted with all the other things in your life, but having that attitude and that work ethic and that drive to get up and create your own schedule, we had to create our own opportunities, whether it was you or I as an individual sales person, or once we became management, and then that wasn’t a path for you and interesting in my own career, that was the path I pursued there. And now I’ve taken a step back from that, that role of management. I like the idea of individual success, individual drive, being able to say, Hey, I’m going to create what I need to create for my clients as opposed to what I have to try to instill upon a group of other people, right? Yeah. So basically, building blocks of professional life, professional life had to happen. How do you how do you schedule your day? How do you make sure you’re waking up and you’re getting all the things done that need to get done in a given day amidst all the other distractions that are always

Brad Weimert 3:22
out there. Yeah. Interestingly, I have our sort of executive and management staff at easy pay direct routinely, somebody on the team will do something, and they will get irritated by it, and I’ll say, Have you explicitly told them how to perform that thing? Yeah, task. And they’re like, no, they should just know how to do it. Just, you know, yeah. And I’m like, okay, but a lot of people didn’t build that skill, right? And even things as simple as showing up on time, they don’t, they haven’t been programmed to do it. So back out and make sure they understand and give them advice to do it right now. Once they know how to do it, if they don’t do it, we have a different problem, but some of those are I definitely learned through basic blocking and tackling, as my ops guy says, Through cut,

Corey Lilburn 4:07
love it, yeah, there’s a point. You don’t want to be a professional babysitter, yeah. Or right? You just assume that somebody should have learned that. And I think getting getting our nose bloody right, hearing No, heck, hearing No, in the sales culture that we had there prepared me to go out of the dating world, oh yeah, and get my nose bloodied in the dating world, eventually finding that partner in life. But I think there’s, there’s the attitude that is instilled upon us that you have to just keep trying to keep going. You ask for the order you’re going to ask for the referral, and if you don’t get it, that’s okay, right? Then the longer we go in our careers now, the more I can appreciate and value a quick no over a long, drawn out, right? Is that not the worst? Oh, yeah, right. You’re kicking the can down the road. And somebody can’t just tell you to your face, I don’t want to do business with you. I’d much rather hear that then, yeah, can you can you give me another month? Can you give me a couple more months? And those are things I think that we grew to you. Really appreciate value in those cut go training piece. Yeah, I’m

Brad Weimert 5:03
gonna hit on that later, because I think that how you approach the ask is super relevant to a lot of people in the do a terrible job of it. Sure. How do you see AI impacting insurance within the next five

Corey Lilburn 5:18
years? So we sold our agency to abrasure back in 2015 and acrosure was four or $500 million agency at the time. They grew over the next several years, and 2019 was a couple billion dollar agency, and they made a purchase at that time that was four or $500 million and it was an AI firm, not Talco, and that was a really big deal before AI was was cool, before AI was something talk about. And so it’s been a healthy investment of our organization. How we use it, I think, is, is an ongoing study, and we’re going to continue to figure out how we can use in our personal lives, how we can use it in our professional lives. I’m by far, not even close to being an expert at figuring out how I can really use AI to the greatest potential. I think we’re constantly learned. So I’ve got subscriptions on several different right now, trying to pull them in to help start a product, help analyze a process or a law that comes out right finding gets a Christmas version really quick to get to be first out there with my clients and helping them understand what’s going on. So I think there’s, I think we’re just starting to scratch the surface

Brad Weimert 6:29
on AI. Yeah, I do too. I think that there’s, I mean, there is the application of AI in the day to day role that you have as a salesperson, and then there’s the application of AI in the insurance ecosystem, sure and how you assess risk, for example, has any of that come to fruition at this point in your perception? You know, actuary

Corey Lilburn 6:52
tables? I doesn’t know that I’m seeing that different than I was pre AI. I think that we are. We’re still learning how that’s going to be an impactful tool right now. I think that the way that we’ve been doing risk assessment is still pertaining in with or without air.

Brad Weimert 7:08
Yeah, I’m super curious. I mean, insurance is equally boring to payments and the it all the all the tenants are the same. Yeah, it’s risk assessment, and nobody thinks about payments in terms of risk assessment, which I’m not going to go on a rant. Go on a rant about that now, but you can’t if you aren’t. I talked about it so fucking much. It’s there, but it’s, it is, it is the same you assessing risk, sure. And so I think it’s, it will prove to be incredibly helpful in the future when we get there. Yeah, I don’t know what that looks like, either. So I’m always curious to see people’s take on you know how that’s going to improve the

Corey Lilburn 7:41
industry. I also think that there’s a challenge with how, how the big carriers are assessing risk, versus how we can do it on our own, right? So one of the things that you’ve know that that I’ve changed my career, and this is probably post ACA, right? So the ACA is almost becoming old law, and what’s ACA? ACA was the Affordable Care Act. So the ACA people call the mountain of care 2010 right? This thing was signed into law. And what I told new people to the business that year was, this is, this is the great game change, right? Take the experience that I had for the the decade prior to that and further out the door. So that meant, take the take the experience that all of the old guard brokers had for 20 and 30 and four years prior that throw out the door. That was the great game changer. And one of the things that we saw we talked about risk assessment, the ability to look at clients is moving a lot from fully insured to the self funded marketplace, right into being that self funded client, and you’re going to create yourself as the insurance carrying for the first X dollars in coverage, we’re still going to be able to reinsure those, those really awful things. There’s still going to be an instance of cancer. It’s going to be on stage Reno, the premiums are born, etc, etc. So we still have to buy reinsurance. But for that average 100 life employer, 150 life employer that had been counting on Blue Cross or United. So to manage that risk, Bora, we said, let’s, let’s take some control back. And so saw a massive shift, not just to my booking business, but lots of, lots of books of business out there. Brokers worth their solve figuring out how to do that underwriting, how to move people into the right stop

Brad Weimert 9:15
loss mechanism. Yeah, well, I want so that’s I want to talk about that specifically. I want to get to, you know, what small businesses can do to not get bludgeoned by large insurance carriers later, because I don’t want to lose people in the weeds of insurance yet there. But actually, you know, any entrepreneur that starting out or otherwise, I think it’s much more relevant. As you get going, you build a team, and things get bigger and bigger, and you build some space to be able to focus on the other elements of building a company. I think when you’re getting going, you really need to focus on just driving sales, getting the business up and running right. Then you can worry about the nuances, but insurance. Uh, benefits and the culture of your company is what the company is share. It’s where it builds things. So as you want to talk about before we get there, I want to go back to sales, because I could talk about it endlessly. My perception with insurance is that it’s an incredibly relationship based sales specifically, the type that you’re doing, what is, what is the sales cycle like for you? Give me the target client, the sales cycle, etc, because it’s different than sitting at a kitchen counter and selling something nuts.

Corey Lilburn 10:31
Yeah, right. Well, and it’s changed over my career, too. You made a good point where, in the beginning, you’re willing to take on anything. So we were willing to sell that one trimmer at one point in time. Obviously we wanted it was it called the homemaker. We wanted the homemaker sale. We were willing to get that one trimmer when I started my career. It was any 10 or 15 or 20 life company. But the rules are different, you know, state by state, and so you kind of start to build your target where you’re going there. It’s not a it’s not a kitchen table sale. You’re, you’re going after a business, and within that business, you’re going after a decision maker within that business. So you think of your client as ABC company, but really your client is Bob for Sal, or the person that’s making that decision. Because they’re your they’re your ultimate point of contact. They’re the person you’re going to be having that relationship with. And so it is a relationship driven sale, and it takes time to cultivate. I think the smaller the business, the shorter that sales cycle is going to be, the larger the business. Unless you’re there at a particular point in time where that pain is really serious, right, where they say, my current guy has been doing a terrible job in X, Y and Z, you just happen to be at the door and that time, or referred in at that time. So I think that has changed over the career as well. The focus that you got to go after today that that focus is a company is typically privately held. There’s several under to a couple 1000 employees. That’s that’s who I’m sitting down with. Typically. It’s a CFO, a CEO, maybe an HR director, and uncovering what that pain points would look like.

Brad Weimert 11:57
That’s a lot of employees. Where do they fall in terms of revenue? That’s not a market you track. It’s always interesting talking to different, like, radically different verticals, sure, yeah, because they measure differently, right? Yeah, measure heads, right. What’s the range of revenue

Corey Lilburn 12:12
for 100,000 well, and you think of in your level, you know, you think the reason it’s not tracked, because your your revenue per employee could be off the charts, right? I’ve got a client that has 400 employees that they’re a billion dollar organization that’s huge revenue per employee. And then there’s some of that size that are maybe nonprofits, and maybe they’re worth a couple 100 million dollars. So I think the span there is huge for me. To boil it down, to make it easy for my referral partners, I have to boil it down to a head count, and to say, Have you run some risk there? Right in the world of insurance, you run risk of participation percentages, right, where maybe I’ve got a group of a couple 100 employees, but because of culture or demographic that they’re hiring, maybe the participation rate is really low. And so that can be a disastrous report, and try and put together a plan that assesses risk based on the law of large earners,

Brad Weimert 13:05
one of the things, and I want to focus on the mechanics of it, because I think that for all businesses, looking at other models can be incredibly helpful to figure out what levers to trigger in your own business. Yeah, your sales cycle is so insurance is so different, and sales process is so different than other industries, because of the regulation, yeah, because of the renewal process. And then you go into, like, functionally, more of an enterprise type sale, where you maybe multiple decision makers, yeah, so I want to kind of walk through that, but start with the lead gen and sales process. So when you have multiple decision makers, how do you open the door with the right decision maker in the first place?

Corey Lilburn 13:49
So it’s a it’s a great question. So my dad, who’s an educator, I was trying to help him understand what I do, and I had that problem all the time with my family. I just, yeah, right, right? Or you use the words like broker or consultant insurance you’ve mentioned, and when you try to explain what I do, I’m not selling insurance. My client already has insurance. My job is to try to remove the advisor of that client’s insurance package, right? And so might be my dad described it back to me as you’re kind of an assassin, and you have to come in and get somebody else totally fired and like, yeah, that’s a pretty basic way. Yeah, that that’s that. If you were describing your friends at this accident, that’s awesome. So really, the job isn’t to sell this by insurance. It would be very rare for me to go to an employer of several 100 employees and find that they don’t have anything first of all, they’re they’re skirting the law today somehow, right? And then an applicable large employer says you have to now offer something, and so majority of the time, almost all the time, it’s coming in to replace an advisor who isn’t necessarily on a watch the way that they should have been at one point in time. So that sales cycle, like I said, it can be very. Short, if you’re there at the right time, but more likely, you have a committee of buyers, you have HR, you have finance, you have the executive and so making sure you can line all of those up. And then who got me in there? Who referred that right? So I think spending, like you said, a lot of this is in your business too. It’s relationship trigger. Who helped you open that door to this person. How strong was that relationship? Is this something that’s going to be a shorter cycle, or is that relationship, you know, more surface deep, that it’s going to take me a lot more time to build that on my own?

Brad Weimert 15:29
Is it all relationship so, is it all relationship driven? Or are you doing cold outreach as well?

Corey Lilburn 15:33
I don’t do cold outreach anymore. That’s not to say that I did back in the day when we were grinding. You doing everything right? So you’re going through lists and lists and lists and lists today. It’s all referral driven, but it’s interesting too. In the very beginning of my career, HSAs were brand new, and then health to reform happened in 2010 and so there were certain metrics that said, Wait a minute, maybe my golfing buddy or my fishing pal isn’t the best broker for me anymore, but any they’re not keeping up on some of the latest and greatest changes. Covid was a game changer for everyone, right? So the pandemic changed a lot of the laws and how we do and so that enables you to throw some additional spears at that relationship that’s already existing, that the country club buddy may not be the best broker for you, right? And so you start to make a business decision as opposed to a personal decision, and that’s where you know the goal is having that great relationship, but also locking up so the client understands that the advice that they’re getting from me, even though we’re now friends, even though we now might go golf, even though we might do whatever, the advice they’re getting from me and from my team is Warner pack will never get from somebody else. And so we spend a lot of time talking about which the resources that they get when they buy

Brad Weimert 16:42
me interesting. I like the frame of not selling insurance because you’re selling yourself. I also think that selling yourself is a dangerous proposition and puts you in a position where you have to be on all the time. Sure. So you’re selling yourself in obviously, the services of the firm. Sorry, I want to go back to, like the the actual solicitation and driving to the right relationship, because even so, cold outreach is one thing. Even if you have a referral, it might not be to the right person in the company, right, right? So you have an end to Bob, who is a VP of sales, okay, in the company, right? How do you bridge the cap and what’s the introduction and what’s the initial conversation? Because in a like, in a lot of our our clients worlds, and a lot of entrepreneurs, I know there’s a deliberate sales cycle, yeah, and there’s a direct marketing element of it, where it’s like, hey, here is the value proposition, and here is the pitch, here’s the call to action. Yeah, with a long cycle sale, how do you translate into that? And how do you ultimately get to the ask and the yets, it’s

Corey Lilburn 17:50
digging. I think it’s mining. I think it’s working through what’s the value of the person that I was referred to right Performing Arts Center was referred into the Director of Food and Bev. The Director of Food and Bev is not a decision maker in the world of who’s going to buy the employee benefit package. But as I talked to this dude, I found out that the HR director was a big fan of Frank Sinatra. We had to submit, well, cool thing to know we had, we had to submit RFPs that were all the same. They were getting RFPs from a dozen my competitors, and it was in a box, and you couldn’t tamper. I mean, it was, it was very rule driven how we all had to submit our response for them, everybody’s going to look exactly the same in that scenario. This broker has 27 different value added services. We have 24 different they have 28 I mean, they’re measuring things that really are going to look a lot of light. And so in talking to food and Beth, I find this little nugget of information. I’m sitting around my team, and we’re talking about, how do we how do we look different here? And one of the guys on the team says, singing telegram. Well, that works great if you’re going after the Performing Arts Center in town. So hired a guy did a deal in a parking lot, handed him my RFPs, looked at him with his tilted Frank Sinatra hat, the disheveled tie, and said, put your little Biddy together. And he literally sang a song about my agency as he presented it to the director of HR. I got a call later that day, and she said, I can’t give you the business for that, but you’re now a finalist, because that was totally different. And so I say that because whoever you’re getting referred into is somebody that could potentially be an influencer. And so Director of Food and bed became my Mole, my person. That when I knew this is what we were going to do and how this was going to happen, called the guy back up, and I said, Look, I need you to gather a whole bunch of people. Frank Sinatra is going to show up at x time. I need a few people in the lobby when this thing is delivered to make it look like an actual little show, and so that that cycle shortened because of that. So who that you’re referred into can be that person that’s going to get you into the right place, at the right path. Yeah, I love that.

Brad Weimert 19:53
Our great, longtime friend of mine, John rule and fast last year had a i. General philosophy that you needed to take care of the most important people in your prospects life, excellent, meaning the spouse, right, or the kids, sure. And so when he was working on a relationship that he wanted to drive deeper for whatever reason, as a client or as a referral partner or an unknown reason, he would always make sure that he gifted the wife. Cher took care of the wife or husband. I love that. Yeah. I

Corey Lilburn 20:27
mean, giftology was such a such a simple concept, that John made a massive change in a lot of people’s worlds. Right? How we choose to give things? You think about the pandemic, when life was shut down depending on what state you lived in. We live in a free state of Florida, so we weren’t shut down as long as a lot of people. But life was shut down how we know it, and you’re such a great networker, I’ll brag on you for a minute. You sent out that may for Cinco de Mayo, a split of class azul, and you sent it to a handful of friends, none of whom knew each other. The only connection was you. And we did a happy hour together for for Cinco de Mayo. And that was a, in my mind, a ruling giftology That sort of sticks with you, that says this is something that’s a totally different concept. And there we were on zoom at a happy hour time frame, happy hour class, Azul together. And really the purpose was for you to introduce like minded friends to one another and have a conversation, see what comes. And I thought that was amazing, but that that’s that concept that is is so simple in nature, just taking care of those around you, and then business can afford, relationships can afford. So great reference to Joan, yeah, it was super fun. Yeah, what’s super fun? Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, that’s not my go to drink. Oh, how do you add good time, man? What

Brad Weimert 21:44
was, what was super funny about that particular time is, Cameron Harold was on Sure, and I had, I had sent up half fits, yes, yeah, 375, yeah, milliliters. Because why would you need a whole fist? Thank you. But in Canada, I couldn’t get them to deliver half of it. So Cameron got a full fit, aha, right? And he was unaware that he was the only one with the full fit. So when people were like, Oh, mine’s empty, he was like, I better have some more.

Speaker 3 22:12
He’d sell it behind me. I do remember him having a lot of fun on that show. That’s great.

Brad Weimert 22:18
It was awesome. Well, you know, I think that this, this addresses some bit, which is stand out, do something different to get attention, yeah, to get your foot in the door outside of theatricals. How do you make insurance less boring? And so people want to engage

Corey Lilburn 22:36
on it, buddy, that it’s not that. It’s not possible. I mean, that’s some really difficult test. You’ve made payments less boring by creating a podcast. That’s a great idea. Maybe I’ll try to be that I don’t know how to make insurance less boring. I think that I have leaned into the fact that I’m on a nerd. And I have, I have studied insurance to be nerdy about it enough to where clients go. Hey, this nerd actually knows what he’s doing. He’s assembled a team around him that is providing a value added service that we need. So it’s tough to make it less boring. I’m not a good golfer, you know? I mean, it’s, you’re a good drinker. I actually, you know, I can’t do that and sales, I try to make that a little bit more fun. I think that more often, that we can have that we can break bread with prospects and clients, that we can have a drink with a prospect or a client. I think the more that those relationships are going to form, and so the less that I have to talk about insurance, the more I could talk about just who I am as a person, or who my team is, and what we’re going to bring to the table different than they’re getting today. Insurance is going to happen. It’s a necessary evil. We’re going to have to continue buying it. I just have to try to make that process a little bit easier. I

Brad Weimert 23:41
want to talk about the sales element related to renewals. So there’s a there’s a comparison here to renewals are very strange, that the cycle of insurance like only being able to do it once a year, and the transition and the regulations around it. I want to talk about just, I want you to explain what the parameters are there, yeah. And then I want to talk about how you sell that and how you make sure you get the renewal the next year, and how you engage the group also. And I want to do that not because I care about insurance, but because a lot of people have clients and client relationships that are recurring by nature, yeah, and pay them over time, and they pay them more and more and more if you keep them Yeah, but they don’t have a good mechanism to keep them engaged over time, right? So how do renewals work structurally? Yeah. And how do you think about reselling the

Corey Lilburn 24:33
renewal? I don’t, I don’t put it that in that frame at all. I think that the renewal needs to be made a non event. I think if the renewal is an event, then it becomes a linear process where I have a client, I have a renewal, have an open enrollment, check the box of that right? I sell against that concept all the time. This is a this is a site. This is a never ending cycle. I’m learning about your business as we go through and we have the conversation we’re getting half a year in. We’re having claims conversation. All the way along, so that you understand, how are we managing what’s going on in your world, right? And the best claim is no claim at all. So how are we helping to manage and mitigate that claims, those claims. But as we get closer, we’re now having pre renewal conversations, right? So we can hone in and pivot away from some of the other aspects of just insurance. But how’s your business going? What’s the latest? Are you looking to acquire this year? Are you looking to sell this year? Is there going to be a massive change in labor, one way or the other? Now, as we get closer to renewal, it’s a non event. It’s just part of the process. If you focus on selling the renewal, then you’re considering losing that client. At no point in that cycle Am I losing that client, constantly developing this relationship and constantly developing the need for, hey, we’re coming up on renewal. But it’s not a surprise to my clients, because we’re having these conversations all the way along. They know this is a crappy claims year. I mean, one year out of five for the average self funded client is going to be a crappy year. It’s going to be a blow up year where the claims are going to be bad. That’s just the historical average. The two years out of 10 are going to stink. How do how are we managing through that cycle, right? What are we doing that to make that happen? This isn’t a pack for year. I mean, the beginning of the summer the experts were predicting and we’d see an eight to eight and a half percent trend increase next year. Trend is simply medical inflation, right? So you think of current inflation, market inflation, dynamic, dynamics. Medical trend has typically hovered somewhere around three times normal inflation, no, which is crazy to understand. I know this grows. It the cost of health care is rising. Cost of health care is expensive. Prescription drugs are expensive. So we can, we could argue, who’s at fault there that can be a lot of finger pointing that goes on at the end of the day, health care is expensive, right? And so at the beginning of the summer, trend was looking like eight to eight and a half percent. Just here, in the last couple of weeks, trend has now been predicted to go to 10% so you think about that increase in just a short span of time, to go from 8% to 10% that’s a that’s a massive change in two months predicting what’s going to happen for next year. And so if that holds true, that’ll be the biggest impact on claims that we’ve seen in probably 30 to 40 years. I mean, it’s a really big impact on what we’re going to see next year because of the cost explosion in healthcare in general. So we talk about renewal. It’s preparing clients to understand this is what we have to budget for next year. The trains left the station. We now have to prepare. What are we doing to to help mitigate those costs? Yeah. I mean,

Brad Weimert 27:26
what I really heard, that’s applicable, I think, to all other industries, is you have to keep the conversation in the relationship going, so that the you have a assumptive close for the next transaction, sure, which a renewal is sure, but you’re a lot of that’s framing, right? And a lot of it’s relationship management, and you have to figure out the touch points where you can interact with people so that it seems natural for the next

Corey Lilburn 27:50
purchase. Yeah, are you giving an opportunity to say for say, No, I don’t really do business with you anymore. I mean, I consider myself to be a trusted advisor, to be a ideally, the lifespan of this business, right? I want to be there as the advisor for their employee benefit package. That means I don’t want to make a big deal of I need you to sign paperwork at our at a renewal. That’s that’s a non event, right? That’s just part of the normal process that this is a constant evolution of how’s your business going? Where does my business fit into that? And let’s figure out the rust, yeah, man, I think

Brad Weimert 28:23
that’s a really big deal. I mean, I There are the assumptive close is very effective in a lot of different areas of sales. And you have to be aware of the dynamics of the relationship, the entry point of the relationship, the current status of it, for it to be effective. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes the some, sometimes, honestly, even with, like, cold traffic. And this could apply in personal life and dating, sure, or it could apply in a business sale where you just completely assume the close, and you’re just like, oh, yeah, so let’s do that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you just sign here. And sometimes that’s enough, sure, right, right? And sometimes it’s like a full stop, and it fucks up the whole sales plot. Yeah, right, right. Whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah, we’re not doing that. I wanted to hit on that you clearly are a geek about insurance, so let’s say our estimate there’s a big difference. Is there, what’s, what’s the hat? You can a nerd. It could, you could, I don’t know, but you mentioned in your insurance nerd, dumb, yeah, there you mentioned. You know, healthcare costs are rising. Healthcare is expensive. Pharmaceuticals are expensive. And one could argue that pharmaceuticals are not expensive and that people make them expensive because of a broken system. Yeah, so Mark Cuban started cost plus drugs, yeah, right. To highlight how ridiculous the pharmaceutical industry is and how not expensive some of these things are to manufacture, yeah, and the other side of this R and D, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, but you have a structure that forces people to pay more than they might need to, right? So where do you. Uh, PBMs fit into self insuring and traditional insurance. And how do you

Corey Lilburn 30:07
think about that? You’re begging me to go down the the mechanics of insurance right now,

Brad Weimert 30:11
only a little bit. Okay, just, so we’ll just, yeah, so enough that it’s it can be helpful for, you know, at small, small businesses, right? So small and mid sized businesses had different challenges, yeah, been enterprise businesses, so I’d say sub 100 humans working in your company, yeah, have a different dynamic, but I think that understanding the basics is relevant to them and knowing what’s available to them versus

Corey Lilburn 30:33
the masses. So start with it. Well, we back up. Mark actually came and spoke to our industry association earlier this summer, and also it was awesome. In his introduction, he literally said, I’m here to f up the insurance industry. And that was, that was great, right, to shake things up. And his his business is, is, is fantastic, the PDMS pharmacy benefit managers. So you think about how we access our drugs when you go to fill your prescriptions at a Walgreens or a CVS, or wherever you’re buying your drugs, there’s the drug maker, there’s the retail store, and in the center, my guy Joe doesn’t have any of those. Your guy Joe is a different situation in the center. Is that PBM, right? And so all of the drugs and they end up at retail, are coming through our PBM, and three of them generate 80% of the drugs in our country free PBX, they are Express Scripts and CVS, Caremark. Okay, those three, and I’m going to take a lot of a lot of heat for this, but those three are either owned by or own an insurance carrier. All three of them talk about an incestuous relationship that’s happening there, right? So when you talk about cost rising, there is inherent problem in that scenario. So Mark is out of that 20% that are independent PBMs. There are a lot of them. By the way, it’s not just him. He’s obviously done a great job. He’s got great brand. But there’s lots of independent PBMs that we look to to say, how can we try to keep those costs down? There’s also the ability to buy drugs outside of the US. Right at one time it was looked at, is this even legal? It is legal. And there are companies that have been creating to do exactly that, that we go and source drugs from New Zealand, from Australia, free Canada, from Great Britain. There’s seven different drugs that are tier one countries that have the same standards are FDA, seven different countries that have the same standards as our FDA. Four of them, English is their primary language, and so those are the four that we typically source from where you’re getting the same standard as the FDA and they’re speaking English. So clients will get a 90 day supply from overseas at 50 to 70% less than what they buy here onshore. To Mark’s point, that’s a dramatic problem. Yeah, take a step back. That’s your brand date. Drugs, right? 90% of what we fill in this country, 90 are generics. And those generics should be under 10 bucks a month, and in most cases, they are. But there’s lots of pharmacies that give stuff away for free. We design our health plans to wear generic drugs, maintenance medications, your blood pressure medicine, your cholesterol medicine, things you’re going to take to the end of time. We designed the plan where those drugs should be free to the memo, and in most cases, the employer agrees. That’s going to move the needle a half of a percentage point, maybe on the overall cost of their plan, but it will keep their their employees compliant on whatever it is at their tree, right? So a little problem doesn’t become a big problem because somebody forgot to go and fill their drug or didn’t have the five bucks, or whatever it is, make those drugs spray, make them automatic, and that makes a game changer of a difference. Mark has created something that that is going to be at very actful over time. I do agree with that,

Brad Weimert 33:34
uh, helpful context, in terms of insurance, paying for some drugs or not other drugs. When you are an employer of X amount of people and you have employees that have a prescription benefit plan, yeah, sometimes you’re not able to, am I right? And that sometimes you’re not able to get the generic version, and your coverage is for the name brand, yeah? And that’s

Corey Lilburn 34:00
it, yeah, each carrier has a PDO, a prescription drug list, essentially that says, for cholesterol, we’re going to cover these drugs. And typically there’s an overlap from one carrier, one pedia, to another. That’s pretty strong, more than 90% but certainly there’s disruption that happens when we when we have our clients that are moving from carrier a, a carrier B. You prepare for a network disruption. You prepare for a pharmacy disruption, or some level, you know, typically 5% or so that we know is going to be, Hey, I was getting this drug covered, and now, now it’s not on my formulator anymore, and that’s annoying and frustrating. Obviously, I’d say try a booty day with that. Some look like,

Brad Weimert 34:41
how much does the PDL impact the cost of insurance in general?

Corey Lilburn 34:49
It’s a good question. So with when you talk about pharmaceuticals in general, when I got into the business, and this is 25 years now that I’ve been doing this, I think pharmaceuticals. We can fact check me in this but probably represented 10% of your overall premium. If premium is 100% prescription drugs are probably the ballpark of 10% today, I have clients where 50% of their spend is their drugs, and that’s a challenge, right? The average is still probably in the high 20s, but it is not uncommon to see a third of the spend be on prescription drugs. And so managing that is a really big deal, which, again, is why we have these solutions that our talks about. Is why we talk about buying drugs overseas. It’s why we talk about, what can we do to try to lower, lower the cost? There GOP ones are the talking point today, right? And so you have, you have that category of people that are that are taking them for weight loss, and I think that category has exploded. Well, there’s guardrails around that, on a prescription drug plan, on a medical plan, and I think there should be guardrails around that. Lifestyle choices are probably the first scenario we should look at before we start to tap into the we go visa boiler, right? But you do have that category where folks that have an A 1c score, diabetics that are taking place in that are taking Majora, those are life saving drugs for people. And so the cost in that category, to me, is worth it and can be borne by the plant. It’s the rest that we’re looking for, the quick fix that probably is not something that should be paid for by answer. So if

Brad Weimert 36:21
average cost of in but if average ratio used to be 10% was prescription, and it’s inflated to 25 to 50, depending on the plan, even on the low end, there’s tremendous inflation. There are more people sick in using drugs, or did the cost of drugs just go up that

Corey Lilburn 36:39
much? That’s a great question. I went out rid of that. I think the cost of drugs has just gone up that much. And again, you get into the great finger pointing that happens in our industry, where R and D, if grandma means a drug to help keep her alive for 10 more years, do we want to buy that drug for granted? Most of us would answer, yes. I want more time with that person. But the R and D to bring that, bring that, bring that drug to market, as it’s always been argued to us, that says this is what cost so much for the big drug makers, right? Pfizer’s and Merck’s up the world Mark Cuban and those in this space are trying to do effectively is shine spotlight on that and say, let’s just make sure that that’s actually true. Is the cost of R and D so much. So we have to inflate the cost of that drug when it comes to market. Yeah, that much more. One of my clients is on a bio asset that a dependent on a bile acid synthesizer, kid can make bile, and it’s a $750,000 drug every year. And that’s something the most expensive bits out there. Those would be a couple million dollar drugs to Bay put on on market, which is, which is insane, but it’s also, if you are that parent, and you know, there’s a life saving drug out there, do you not want that drug for your kid? Right? So it becomes a really impactful question for us to answer, and then who pays for

Brad Weimert 37:56
you’ve got a very interesting, challenging situation in a capitalistic society, and there is a question of when government intervention makes sense right and when it doesn’t, and when tax dollars should be put to work right and when they shouldn’t. But I would argue that the larger problem across the board is the perversion of those incentives with the different parties involved? Sure, and it’s frustrating to see that, where you see regulations passed, things put in place, insurance companies owning PBMs, yes, versa. Those are things that are not good, right, for anybody, right,

Corey Lilburn 38:41
except those parties. There’s a lot of dollars, I’m saying, a lot of days. I think that a lot of people would argue that middlemen like me, and at the end of the day, I am a middle man, right? So I have a client who needs to buy insurance, and because of the failures of the of the world of insurance, there needs to be somebody in the middle to help keep this segment honest, right to say, I want to compare x insurance company against another one. The problem is with with a lot of brokers out there, the explosion of rates and a commission rate tied to that has led to brokers making getting fat happy. Frankel and so the brokers worth their salt, and you can argue, is it called a broker or consultant? Whatever the case may be, there’s a fine line there. But the brokers worth their salt will come in and change a commission percentage to a flat fee to say, regardless of how bad your claims yet and year over year, were able to start happening, I still am paid what I’m worth, which is this feat not something subject to how sick your people down, thus how big your renewal got. And I think that’s been a good selling point for those of us who feel like we’re bringing a good service to the table that doesn’t have to be contingent upon how sick that client is when I when I inherit them.

Brad Weimert 39:58
Yeah, I think it’s very, very, very. Very important across the board, to look at incentives, sure. And if you, you know, there’s a age old narrative of follow the money, yeah, and, and I think Charlie Munger has a good quote about, you know, if you want to understand somebody’s performance or what the performance will be, look at the incentives. Yeah, that’s not a or something that’s much more interesting. And he’s pretty smart, I will set the net,

Corey Lilburn 40:28
but something we press your courty of hunger, that’s that’s impressive. He’s actually older than us, but, yeah, it’s as old as we may feel right now. He’s got to speak.

Brad Weimert 40:36
And Sterling, who died in me and I recently did, he just that. I knew the idea

Corey Lilburn 40:39
was in the ears. I didn’t know the timing of the release of this show here. You know, maybe we back out the one. We’ll

Brad Weimert 40:45
cut that part for 10 we knew. Pretend we knew, like responsible capitalists. So, yeah, I think, look, the most relevant point for small business owners relative to insurance is, how do you play the system the right way? Right? How do you not get screwed? How do you provide good coverage? How do you do it at a lower cost than normal? And so, you know, you have built a career around understanding self insurance and understanding how to utilize that the best way possible. What give us the basics and at what size doesn’t make sense, because, like, there are a lot of people listening that are small, right, that have a few employees. To call it, 50 employees, yeah. When can you put self insurance in place? How do you supplement it? When you do it, and when is it not worth it?

Corey Lilburn 41:38
That’s a great question. I think that the route is a business owner didn’t business to offer health insurance to his place, right when you would you, when you have an idea for a widget or a service and you go into business, you need to start stepping up. The first thing you’re thinking about is not, how can I go and buy insurance, and what insurers look like? And so I think the answer to your question is having a relationship with a consultant who actually knows how to advise you, knows how that how that business could fit into the right model. I have friends that start out in business, and my first response is, get a key. Oh, right. Go get a one stop shop where you’ve got somebody that’s going to handle your insurance or workers comp your payroll, all of it, because it’s a distraction for you. Are you going to pay a much, much higher fixed cost of that yes, so you don’t want to have that long term, but in the short term, maybe that could be your fix. There are clients that when they get to 20 or 30 or 40 employees, start to consider self funding. And self funding is there’s a subset of self funding called level funding, where the carrier is really offering a self funded chassis to you, but again, charging a higher fixed rate so that you can share in some potential surplus at the end of the year, you got to have the right consultant who understands your business to know if that’s the right avenue for you to go down right or do we wait a little bit longer in the fully insured space and then go all in on self funding, not dealing with This level funded self subset, so we can enjoy the rest and reward. Well, let me

Brad Weimert 43:04
get the basics of self funding. So my basic understanding is of a 12 year old, probably no, it’s funny, but, but the basics of self insure, of insurance period, are that premiums are collected, and you’re assessing risk to basically say it’s unlikely that these things are going to happen. We’re going to collect. To collect enough premium so that if they happen, we can pay for it, and over time, we have a pool of money that will allow us to cover the potential risks. The Other Side of insurance is that, in order to maximize that equation, they’re negotiating better rates for certain things, and that’s pharmaceuticals and medical services, sure, right? So a doctor might charge 500 bucks for a given service, but insurance company might only pay him 300 or her 300 Okay, right? As usual. Tree so far, yeah, negotiator, eight, sure. So in the world of self funding, the second element doesn’t exist or does. So if you self on an insurance plan and you’re saying, Hey, I’m going to aggregate this pool of money to cover the cost of insurance in the back end, how do those two things get reconciled? And how does that work?

Corey Lilburn 44:13
So let’s simplify it terms of buckets. If you’re in a fully insured plan, all of the components of your plan are bundled into one. The insurance carrier is trying to make it easier for you, as the business owner, to say, we’re going to cover your pharmaceutical plan. We’re going to cover all the admin you’re going to pay one premium that’s based on the eligibility of your population, right? So everybody’s selecting Plan A or B, you’re paying a premium based on that. If we’re going to go self funded. We have to deconstruct what that premium looks like, and we put it into three buckets. Bucket A is just the administrative cost of running a plan. You don’t want HR to be looking at every claim that comes in, right? So instead, we hire a third party administrator, and there are lasting and third party administrators, some of which you’ve heard of that are owned by United UMR. Aetna, meriting, CBS, Aetna, the list goes on, and then you have lots of independent third party administrators. That’s the smallest bucket of fixed costs. That’s based on how many people do you have, right? And so they’re administering the plan, the claims, the network, etc, bucket b. Now I have to solve for what about my worst case scenario? So bucket b is my reinsurance right? Bucket B says I need to have the deductible, which the size of that deductible is generally dictated by the size of your organization. How many belly buttons are there? And so it’s the great truck we use in a world belly button. I don’t know why that started. So in bucket b, I’m paying a premium to a reinsurance carrier, right? And this is basically catastrophic. This is catastrophic for the worst things that happen for a person, but also in the aggregate. What if the underwriters are wrong? Well, if they’re wrong to the tune of X percentage above my expected claims count, I also want protection that. What if we had a bunch of mid level claims and we just exploded through our aggregated passport point, meaning I had some big hits per person, but I also had a lot of medium sized hits all across the entire company. So you’re protecting yourself on two

Brad Weimert 46:08
levels. Let me run that back. So I said catastrophic, meaning something like cancer, sure, a massive car accident, sure. 50 100 million dollar claims. Yeah, 50,000 100,000 million dollar claims, and then you said middle and so the alternative is, let’s say you have one employee that gets cancer, or you have all 30 employees, and all of them have a $5,000 claim.

Corey Lilburn 46:30
Take your example. If 50,000 is my deductible, which says I had a catastrophic cancer, by the way, that’s 50,000 is a million

Brad Weimert 46:39
dollars. Okay? Is your deductible for catastrophic if you’re self insuring? Okay? Yeah. Is that weird? So we

Corey Lilburn 46:44
could use that number, okay, 50,000 would be a smaller client. So a client that has maybe less than 100 employees, right? Whereas a client that has a few 1000 employees might have a half a million dollar deductible,

Brad Weimert 46:56
yeah? So I’m bringing, I want to articulate this further, because most people that have traditional insurance, they don’t have deductible as a company, so not even thinking about it as like the company with our

Corey Lilburn 47:06
apple right built in, it’s aggregated by that fully insured craving. The insurance carriers charge you a risk pool charge for that. So they’re already building that in at the premium that you’re paying. They’re just not seen in line item that, right? So if we have this administrative cost, that a reinsurance cost, the biggest cost that we have to that we have to account for in the world of self funding, is our claims. What are the claims going to be up to that 50,000 so when I use the example of if 50,000 is our specific deductible, and anything above that has been reinsured, meaning an insurance carrier is going to pay that, I as the business owner, have to account for all of those first 40 999, $9 for that particular person. So when I say a bunch of mid level claims, maybe I did have a hit for these 10 different people, but maybe I did pay $45,000 for each of them, meaning I got no reimbursement from the insurance carrier for having a catastrophic hit. I born the full risk up to that deductible, right? So that can lead to an aggregate breach, even if I didn’t have an individual breach, if that makes sense, what is an aggregate breach? Was a breach? Yeah. So breaching a preaching that whale that big do breach, and they took, it’s a good commercial one of our insurance carriers with that. So they if you get to an individual limit, you’re hitting your specific deductible. If you get to an aggregate limit, you’re hitting your ag deductible, which is typically a corridor over and above what’s expected in your overall claims. So if I tell you the Claims are expected 100% we’re going to spend a million dollars of claims. If we spend 1.2 5 million, let’s call it 25% corridor. Now we have a reimbursement for every dollar over that that’s coming from the reinsurance carrier. That makes sense? Yeah? It’s very boring. It’s very boring. Yeah, go back to fucking buy something. Work.

Brad Weimert 48:49
Say, Well, no, I think look, I’d be the question, the underlying question one, and you answered it by saying, find somebody that’s smart that can help your business. Yeah, at what size does it make sense? Do we consider

Corey Lilburn 49:01
sell the sure that number is a moving target, based on market, based on dynamics of your organization. Give me some bad residents. You could have somebody that is a 25 life company, but they are a very homogenous workforce, young bucks construction, let’s say bunch of 25 year old Das, right, 25 year old guys, a 25 life company. I might go immediately to level funding that plan, right, where I know that I can I’m going to have a premium that’s paid. And at the end of the year, in all likelihood, because these guys aren’t using the plan, I’m going to have some surplus that’s coming back to me, right? That’s going to control that risk. Just the same, I might have a 75 life company of less homogenous, 75 like libraries, maybe 25 to 75 Yeah, 25 to 60 unhealthy, right? Or lots of child childbearing age females, or lots of old guys, right? So the risk changes, which are quickly going into that category of old guys. So, you know, you have young women and older men that are some. The higher risk pools that are out there. And so that may be a situation where you go, maybe I want to transfer that risk. Maybe I still want to be fully insured, even though I have this many people on the plan. It comes down to a function of math. We’re sure we’re really just doing the math to say, is there enough premium that we can collect to fund that claims bucket, right? Because at the end of the day, that the most important fund is how much money am I able to set aside to cover the claims of my population? You know what?

Brad Weimert 50:27
People don’t know how to do that math almost all entrepreneurs, which is why I’m drilling into the basic mechanism, right? Which?

Corey Lilburn 50:34
Which is why they need to come into a conversation with an honest consultant that’s going to help them do that. But

Brad Weimert 50:40
somewhere in the ballpark of it, the starting point is 20 or 25 employees. Maybe you consider opening the door to the conversation

Corey Lilburn 50:49
level funding. The benchmark for a self funded plan is to has typically been around 100 employee. Great. So when I start to look at what’s the point that we’re going to not have to worry about level funding and the added fixed cost. It’s around 100

Brad Weimert 51:02
employee got it. So 20 to 25 you start to look at level funding. Start opening the door. 100, you start to look at self funding. Yeah, that’s a great benchmark to look at, sure, because the other side of it is, hey, talk to consultant. You know what I’m not going to do is spend time assessing seven different consultants if I’m not in the ballpark anyway, sure, right? So understanding, like, Oh, don’t worry about it, until this point in time, I think it’s really, really valuable, yeah, yeah, for sure. Because, like, it’s

Corey Lilburn 51:28
the rate. And the in that in the small group marketing under 50 market, the rate is the rate in the state of Florida. And then again, it’s when you’re fully insured, you’re governed by your state, not by federal and so in the state of Florida, under 50, the rate is the same when you line up every single broker. So to your point, you know, have the relationship with one, but it’s not worth time for the others to go and shop the market for you, because they’re going to come back to the exact same place, the exact same process, which is why I stay out of that market frame day. I don’t want to play in that that commodity market rates, just transaction at that point in the under 50 there is, there is not the same amount of value for what my team could do as there is in the over 50 space. Yeah,

Brad Weimert 52:09
that’s super important to know. Do you know the rules in any other states insurance 50 and under?

Corey Lilburn 52:14
Yeah, 50 or under for an order, and that’s most of the states. I’d have to go back and fact check my cell phone. Most of it states 59 years smaller. Some of the states it gets up to it.

Brad Weimert 52:24
Okay, yeah, that’s super, super important to know. So if you have less than 50 employees, your insurance premiums are what they are. Not fucking deal

Corey Lilburn 52:31
with it. Deal with it and find somebody that’s going to shoot you straight. But, but also, the minute you say, I don’t like you anymore, I’m going to shop you a person goes, All right, good luck. Maybe if you’re shopping me just on the price of the insurance claims, you’re going to insurance plan, you’re going to find the exact same price on the exact same plan. If you’re not happy with somebody fired up and go to somebody else, they’re going to give you the exact same price and the exact same plan. Is that. What can they build around that? What’s the suite of services that can come with that? And where, how do you modify the plans? Well, modifying the plans is as simple as looking at, you know, when you’re in the fully insured space, there’s a lot less levers that you could pull when you’re in the full insurance phase. I can look at the plans that are offered by the big carriers, by United Blue Cross that, etc, and I can say that deductible is going to go up or down, that’s going to change my my preak right, the max out of pocket, that’s going to up or down, the co pays, etc, that that is a lot less exciting to be just modifying those things that not being able to control the levers behind the scenes, we were Aqua before. What’s the prescription driven pricing, right? What’s the third party administrator doing? What’s the reinsurance? Can I put this into a captive solution for funds? There’s a lot of other alternatives that I think I’m more excited that just change it with the optimal chain co pays. Yeah?

Brad Weimert 53:38
Well, speaking of things that are less exciting or more exciting, selling insurance companies to bigger insurance companies, roll ups and acquisitions in general is more exciting than insurance in general. Sure, when you first moved into this type of insurance, you worked into being a partner for all trust. So you’re a partner for all trust, and ultimately that, as you mentioned earlier, in 2015 sold acrosher, which was a few 100 million at the time, now is several billion. What did that sale process look like? What was your role and why? What were the elements that made altrus attractive to be purchased? Yeah, it’s

Corey Lilburn 54:19
interesting. I and I was thinking about that when you and I talked about you, talked about having me on, and thank you for having me on. I think that your audience is very entrepreneurial. Your guests are very entrepreneurial. It’s easy to look at somebody like me and go, this is a person who works for an employer of 20,000 employees. This is a corporate stooge, as you so eloquently called me. However, there was that journey to build to that process?

Brad Weimert 54:42
Well, by the way, like the number of people that bat in the show that sold Yeah, and then it was sold with an earn out, yes, is super, super common, right? I mean, it’s incredibly common for people that are incredibly entrepreneurial to find themselves right in corporate role for some period of time, right? So I like to talk shit about it that. Well, it is. I have not. Had to do

Corey Lilburn 55:00
it. You haven’t done it yet, right? It’s also an understanding that there, there is a beings to the end. And with, with all trust, we were building something, and the the founders of all trust brought myself and a few others in as minority partners, and we said, we’re going to sell to you guys. Well, this was fantastic, and the growth. Then we set our shareholder hat down and put the sales guy hat on and just grind it for years. Where we’re grinding We’re building something. We’re actively buying the company. Well, the company grew to a point where the valuation was now meaningful, and more meaningful than our bank accounts were going to justify. And so the founders, who were like second parents to us, I mean, they were truly our mentor, showing Karen. Were amazing people. And they were, they were doing a seller finance buyout, essentially. And they said, look, at the end of the day, we, we don’t want you to have to go to a bank and get a big loan. The company’s worth a lot more than we initially thought it was going to be when we started this process years ago, and so on a bar neck. And here, here’s a number that you’re going to get congratulations. We have, have now been sold. We are selling to to acquisure. And at the time, acrosher was a name that none of us had heard of, because accurate goal was to buy entrepreneurs that can continue that entrepreneurial spirit in their own market. And so at the time, a sure was buying us and allowed us to maintain our our culture of all trust in and the name all trust, and that stayed there for quite some time. Just to tell a couple years ago, something changes when you stamp your name on an NFL stadium. And so when Pittsburgh Steelers, you know, Heinz Field, became actor stadium, a lot of us went, Hey, we should probably grab onto those cook tabs, because the Dave all trust served us very well in the Florida market. Aqua sure now became national and today 20 something other countries as an international organization, $35 billion valuation review, it’s one of the top five insurance agencies out there. But in fact, Greg is pivoted to make this a FinTech company. So now as a corporate employee, I’m learning the avenues of not just employee benefits, which is what I grew up doing, but all the other aspects of aperture that are that are making consulting with clients better. Yeah, right. And so my referral partners today aren’t just the local CPA, it’s my my colleagues who do the property, cash rate? Do the surety bonds that do mortgage, that do title, right? They do payroll, you know. So now we own a payroll company, which is, you know, wild to figure you watch this roll up in this acquisition. But it was, there was a fun process to be part of it, to be part of, not without plenty of challenge, growing into it, right? And continuing that organic growth, because you want to buy somebody who’s then just going to become fat and happy. Fat and happy. So they bought somebody. You stick that earn out in front of them, yeah, you will want you to continue growing. And so for the next couple of years, we continue growing. And then you look at it, you go, Wait a minute, I now have an opportunity with a lot of low hanging fruit, with partners of mine that sell something that’s that is similar to what I sell, and a client that has a very similar need that low hanging fruit is getting harvested now. So for the last eight years of this partnership, it’s been a profitable thing. We continue to grow.

Brad Weimert 58:10
So what I found out about accessure is that their general model is something in the ballpark of when they acquire 40 to 60% cash and 40 to 60% rolled into equity. So they, when they buy an agency, they give you call 50% cash and arrested is an earn out or equity. What did that look like in your situation and and I also, I will love a breakdown of how the owners of the agency pulled you in because you mentioned sort of funding process, but you ran through it real

Corey Lilburn 58:45
quick. Yeah, it wasn’t a gimme. It was, do you want to buy this? And, you know, we said, sure.

Brad Weimert 58:51
What does that mean? Buy into the agency? Yeah. So got it. So they said, hey, the value of agency currently is active, yeah, and it’s so it’s gonna cost you, if you want 1% and cost you 1% insurance to buy in. That’s a vector. But then over the course of time, it became 5x that’s right. And then they came to you, and they were like, Yeah, but we told you 1x Yeah, right. And now it’s 5x or your your percentage, that’s right. Yeah, got it. And so it was a big deal to say we’re not going to be stroking a check effectively, just, you know, payroll deductions that were happening every single month to actively buy the firm, and it was a big chunk of my own personal revenue for those five or six years. Or we were doing that before we sold.

Corey Lilburn 59:30
So yeah, they gave the opportunity to buy what would felt like a significant percentage of the firm, which was right. And then when, when the sale happened, the roll up happened with with a shirt. It was just a matter of rolling all of those shares then into becoming an accuracy show. And what were the

Brad Weimert 59:47
responsibilities so typical? You know, typical earnouts are involve the founder, yeah, and not the team, yeah. But because you are now a partner in the firm, did you have a responsibility in the earn out?

Corey Lilburn 1:00:00
As well, because, yeah, they needed that to happen. I mean, Karen and Joe were at a stage where they were looking to be able to take some shifts off the table and go to the next chapter in their lives. And the rest of us that were buying it were not we were, you know, actively working this, this, again, was now 10 years ago, and so my runway for work is so many of it here is in the future. So it was a big deal to make sure that we were still engaged in that earn out process and incentivized by that earn out process. And so it was, don’t take your don’t take your foot off the pedal. Was kind of the message. Make sure that you’re still renewing those clients. That’s when we talk about that sales cycle, and that renewal, making that a non factor, has been critical to my business, to make sure that our client knows I’m in this for the long haul. I’m not coming to you to ask if you will renew with me. That’s a given because of the cycle of the relationship. Just the same, continuing to generate new business, continuing to hunt, continue to not sit back and be happy and in this business because of the nature of so many brokers that are paid on commission, and having a natural increase every single year, because renewals go up, doesn’t seem like a fair way to just continue to increase your own personal wealth. Yeah, right, and that’s what’s happened. And so those brokers that have chosen to sit back, be fat and happy and just allow that natural increase to happen without adding new clients, meaning without having to stay sharp. And the world of education in our industry enables those of us who are still hunters to come and pluck those clients who have become less satisfied away

Brad Weimert 1:01:30
from them. Y’all love that. So economically, you know, quick math here,

Corey Lilburn 1:01:36
I for sure, bought your agency when they were worth four or 500 million. Yeah, now they’re worth, did you say 30 billion? So, so that valuation is that, I think we’re probably a $5 billion

Brad Weimert 1:01:49
organization today. That’s that was the number that line. Those are the numbers I saw. So, huge increase, easy increase. So the shares they got rolled over are doing okay? Yeah? Awesome. Yeah, yeah. I will say also that in that kind of roll up, most of the roll ups that I see in small business are, like, pu roll ups that are that are smaller plays. So you roll in and you get sort of a quote, unquote second bite at the apple. Yeah, that’s right, meaning you sold your company, took some money off the table, and you have some nominal equity that gets rolled into the bigger thing, right? But the bigger thing is only going to grow so big, and you’re going to get a few points and you get a little bit more, but it’s not a ton more That’s right. In this case, with the growth trajectory of this multi billion dollar firm, the second bite is potentially much bigger than the first

Corey Lilburn 1:02:35
it was. And we had PE backing in that year 2015, when we sold there was still PE backing that one of the biggest, one of the biggest pieces in the accurate start history is that 2016 we did a manageable buy up of that. PD, and so today, I don’t know the exact number, but probably 75 or 80% of acrosure is owned by active employee shareholders that were sure is still as a now privately held company, and so that was a really big deal that the year after we sold, we also said the P here’s your here’s your money back. Congratulations, good investment. We’ll take it for gear. And so our CEO controls our board, and that’s a big deal to us, that we are not beholden to the outside shareholders. You were not beholden to an outside board. And that is a

Brad Weimert 1:03:23
as a summon point when I sit down with larger organizations to say, you know, look, your current broker is publicly traded. Or behold, it to a board that’s not that doesn’t necessarily have your best interest at heart. They have the shareholder interest at heart. There’s, there’s a disalignment there. Yeah, that’s a great cylindrical it’s right. It is totally Yeah, I think that. I think that the takeaway for almost everybody is to think about what the other elements are, the other features or benefits that you’re not thinking about that aren’t part of the core product set, that do impact your target marketing clients, and how can you move those into your sales pitch? Right? So that will maybe straightforward to you, and maybe you were clear on that. I didn’t think about that until I said, right, yeah, oh, yeah. And so, like I we, in my world, we talk about that too, where people absolutely where people are when you register, and you might have a parallel, but when you register as a payment provider with Visa and MasterCard directly, you were beholden, you have a fiduciary responsibility to a given bank, sure. And what that means is that the terms and conditions and products that the banks sell right are what you sell right. And when you don’t register with Visa MasterCard, you can send business where you want cash, right? Sure. So I don’t have to bring you to a given bank, so I don’t have to jam my product down your throat, right, right? I have the options to go where we want, yeah, and to highlight. And by the way, the downsides of that is I have less control. Sure we make less money per deal, right, but I have flexibility on where I can send it, right, and so I can sell against people by highlighting the what they think is their strong. One coin. It’s just like, Oh, we’re registered with beast and massacre. And I’m like, sweet. So the public company person would probably sell, hey, we’re a public company or a great insurance agency. Yeah, that’s public, right?

Corey Lilburn 1:05:08
Who also is selling our own products, right? They’re public. Say, and behold, it to your own shareholders, more so than your clients. And look, there could be a day down the road that that too changes for action. I mean, it’s become a very large organization. So you know, like you talk about, for the average entrepreneur, what is that next step? What’s the exit strategy? And so, you know, a lot less control today than I would have had 10 years ago. But certainly it’s, it’s a great message for clients to hear that we own our company right now, so we’re making decisions on betterment of our clients, not

Brad Weimert 1:05:44
shareholders. Yeah, I love that. Well, I think that the you know, look at somebody else’s strength and think about how you can make it look like a weakness. Absolutely is a good, good exercise, yeah, without an out. So normally, I

Brad Weimert 1:05:54
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Brad Weimert 1:06:26
okay, so I have a I have a fundamental belief that relationships drive everything else in business. Also, it can be pretty easy to rationalize social time in the name of business? Sure, yeah, we’ve done that every now and then, as I would call it, auto How do you rationalize drinking 12 martinis in a night? I did not name the

Corey Lilburn 1:06:51
picnics. I do not. Yeah, that’s a little much. I call bullshit. Okay. Rick, right, yeah, agree, yeah. Some of you want martinis from off it. So that’s a great segue. I don’t know that I’ve ever had 12 martinis, and you definitely did on the first black I think, I think you had a bunch of young guys starting out in business. That group was called Bay Area advisors at the time. Is just a bunch of guys did together before Brady’s that all of whom were big timing each other to say that we’re worth more than we are, all of us in our 20s, trying to build businesses in industry, exclusive positions, meaning, you know, one guy’s attorney, one guy’s a property insurance guy, I’m a benefits guy. We didn’t want to have overlap. The rules were. We also didn’t want to have women, because we were all single, we thought that we’d spend too much time with social flirtation, so that that went out anybody with babies and families and marriage was probably the devil and should be out the door. So all of these things, fast forward 20 years now, and it’s the reverse in all of the cases that the few that have come in of late that are younger, you know, maybe still in their 30s or younger unmarried, to kind of look at side eyed a little bit and go, Is this person going to be trustworthy if they don’t have kids, they don’t have a family yet? So that the idea back then was, how could we be the not a chamber, right? The business card flip that you and I have been to plenty times over our career, that is mostly me. I mean, if you end up walking away with 100 car and you called one person, but then you got something out of that event, we wanted to develop deeper relationships. And so I have a much, much smaller organization. So started out six by statute, agreed to not grow by more than 20. And so today, I think we rewrote the bylaws, and we’re probably 21 or 22 today, but it was a really big deal that we not just know one another, but as time went on, dicks know who we’re dating, who the families became. Now, these guys are my best friends. I know the kids names. We spend lots of time together, but after that first year of getting together once a month for dinner, one time month, at the end of the month, getting the month, getting the good steak dinner that none of us could afford at the time. But again, try to big time each other. After six months of that, we said we should probably do something a little bit more meaningful, to just get together for beers and steaks once a month. One of the guys had a friend’s a doc at Moffitt, and needed some funding for what he was doing. And we said, You know what we’re good at is, there’s throwing parties, and so bunch of 20 something year old guys were pretty good at drinking and throwing parties, and that first party was at the Tampa club. They agreed to give us the room for free. I think I was a member at the time, somehow, again, trying to big client people, and so they gave us the room for free. Jack Harris, who’s a local DJ, agreed to come on for the cost of the few more lights. One of our guys grew up in the Ybor area, and so they would find some food that fell off some trucks somewhere. And so food was all donated, as it would be anyhow. We had 80 people, and we wrote Moffat a check for $3,000 that that next week. We thought we were really big deal. You know, he’s charged $20 a door, or whatever it was, 80 people in that event. And. Got a call from Moffitt that next Monday, and they said, You used our logo without our permission. Oh, crash. We did. Headed up on a sign. I didn’t know that was a thing, but worse at the Tampa club that night was h Lee Moffitt himself, the namesake, right? And Mr. Moffat is significantly older than our clients have been. Our fellow members were at that time. So when Mr. Moffat approached the table, seeing the sign that said, martinis for Moffat, he said to the young lady working the door, I think this is my party. And she politely said, I doubt it. So. So the relationship didn’t start out great. The next year, we linked up with the owner of the Columbia restaurant, who is a major donor to Moffitt. And if you guys will consider this particular division, which was pediatric sarcoma, I’d love to underwrite the event at my restaurant. And so the second year was at the Columbia restaurant, which was fantastic. And Richard has been a mentor for us for years. Linked up soon thereafter with Ed Droste, the founder of Hooters. And so Hooters got engaged, and we started to ramp the event up. And so Moffat became a great partner. By that second year, we figured out the logo situation, but Martinez from off it was born, and we’re coming up on our 20th year. This year, we will have now donated over $4 million to Moffitt. Money has gone to different divisions. Probably the most consistent over time has been janitor analogy of the advanced prostate cancer. Collaboration through Dr PAO sang and Julio has saved many people in my life, including my own mom, my own dad. He obviously janitor analogy that didn’t deal with my mother’s breast cancer, but I made one call to this position we’ve become close with over time to say that was German, who’s the one breast cancer doc at Moffat he would refer her to, and it was amazing, life saving, and she’s doing great today. Cancer Bree, my my wife’s stepmom, I mean, the list goes on. My own boss, Joe, went to see Dr PAO sang. So you know, it’s been an incredibly impactful when you talk about relationships driving everything. We started we started a party. We started drinking martinis in the in the spirit of finding a prevention, finding a cure for cancer, and the relationship with PAO sang and with that hospital has given access to our clients that they would have otherwise had clients friends. I mean, that this is unrelated to the business that I have, but in some level, there’s been crossover, right with bosses and clients that can now get front, front door treatment through through math that they wouldn’t have had without the waiting for that.

Brad Weimert 1:12:40
So that’s actually part of what I wanted to hear about. So I love hearing the story of that. I was present for a lot of that, that, a lot of it, a lot of that. I don’t think it was the first one. I was definitely at the center at the second of the convict and there was a lot of

Corey Lilburn 1:12:53
drinking. I didn’t correct it. There is a significant amount of drinking. Yeah, I just don’t know that it’s a normal Friday night first. It’s definitely a vacation weekend.

Brad Weimert 1:13:03
So you started the group from a, I’ll say networking in here quotes right from a profitability perspective. How do I grow my business? It launched into martinis for Moffitt and which has now donated millions of dollars to a great cause. You just highlighted some of the secondary benefits, which are access to the hospital for people you care about going down the path of a charitable endeavor. How do you look at that from a use of time perspective, for as a young business person,

Corey Lilburn 1:13:45
yeah, I think that was probably some of the best advice that Joe gave me starting out. Is he said, I want you to get engaged. There was emerge Tampa Head Start at the time, which was an offshoot of the Chamber of Commerce. And he said, Why don’t you go into board there and start spending time? And that was a nonprofit. All of us know the Chamber of Commerce and the value that that can bring. That period of time led to the creation of Bay Area advisors, and it was figuring out what we liked and didn’t like about the chamber organization, and we wanted to have something that was deeper and more meaningful. And so quickly it became look, profit is one thing. We’re all trying to refer business to one another, drive one another’s business, but let’s have another meaningful escapade that we’re going to go after here. And so we launched a 506 free, and it became a legitimate nonprofit. That is, it does change lives. I mean, it has been an incredible offshoot of my business. And so when you ask about, how much time do you spend there religiously? Yeah, I was in this group before I was with my now wife, right? So I’ve been in this group almost since the beginning of my work career. Religiously, we hold that last Wednesday of the month as our dinner and and it’s a, it’s a big. Deal that dinner is not just a get together and drink beers and, you know, screw around with each other. It is a formal dinner night with an agenda where we talk about Martinez from off. It is the top of the agenda every single time, and then the other periphery things. But again, this group of 20 guys has become my closest friends. And so we talk about family weekend. What are we doing to engage all of the kids together that the last weekend of school, we always get together. What are we doing for our holiday party? What are we doing for our guys get away? Well, we just go and sort of let our hair say, let her while I left before, but we just get together. And it’s it’s a nice way to decompress with people who you trust, but are also some of the guys in this group are some of the most successful entrepreneurs that I know and and it’s an incredibly impactful mastermind class that we’ve created among our closest firms.

Brad Weimert 1:15:49
So as a as a mastermind group, or networking group, however, you want to look at it, right? You’ve got EO, you’ve got YPO, you’ve got all these other got Chamber of Commerce stuff, those for sure are there to build business Sure, right? That’s the core build business, build, build relationship, core function of the group, learn, grow, charity events, yeah, like Moffitt. How do you translate things like that into deal flow without it being super cringy?

Corey Lilburn 1:16:21
So I we’re not there to sell. We’re there. We’re there for a party with a purpose, right? And so that particular event, I can’t imagine any level of selling that is happening there, with the exception of relationship build, right? What we’re doing at that event is, I will bring prospects and clients the event with the asterisk that they understand. This is a party. This is a social gathering. There is going to be plenty of drinking that’s going to go on at the event. So if that’s not the right person to come to it, we’re not going to wet that person, right? But all of the people that come now, there’s a chance. And then you and I have exchanged people at this particular event, and we go, Hey, this might be a person that might be a person that might impact your business or your personal life, right? And so there’s a lot of personal relationships that come out of that. So I think deal flow happens not not because of the mission of cancer, but become because of the relationship that’s driven the people that we break it out. Yes, I think, I think what I heard there was, keep it social, yeah, in those environments, period, build the relationship. Make the ass player. Yes, 100% Yeah. Nobody’s pulling out documentation.

Brad Weimert 1:17:30
But I think that, you know, one of the lessons that I’ve gotten over time, and I think this is true of, I can’t think of an exception to the state name, but I think it’s through all relationships, is if you have an ask, be direct in the ass, sure, and don’t, you know, seed it in a creepy way, because people see that and feel it, yeah, and so just, hey, I’ve got something I want to talk to you about later. Yeah, I don’t want to talk about it now, but is a reasonable way to go back and then make a direct ask. Yeah, that’s at least been something that I’ve seen to be effective. I agree,

Corey Lilburn 1:18:04
yeah, and I find that this is a great environment to build and foster as referral relationships, maybe even more so than a direct client relationship, right? Where I might, I might be bringing people to to get a vision of who are some of the people I surround myself with. And that’s part of the value of that event, to me is that they can see that this is bigger than just moffen Hospital. This is bigger than just Bay Area advisors, there are some very impressive connections that happen at better.

Brad Weimert 1:18:30
I love that. So you’re old,

Corey Lilburn 1:18:33
but you started wrong to change soon. That crazy, which is, I said, a front number change soon as we have to refer, yeah, which is that

Brad Weimert 1:18:41
few months away a front number change. So you’re old, you started Moffitt when you were young. Would you encourage young people to get involved in nonprofits? Yeah, 100%

Corey Lilburn 1:18:51
I think it was a game changer in my, not his career, but in my life, right? I think that the and it was, it was Joe’s advice to say, Get engaged here. And then the advice was, found a board. But when I was 26 years old, I don’t know about that, create a board. What are you talking about, right? So by getting into the chambers program for under 40 year olds, that helped open my eyes to maybe the idea of finding a board is possible, right? And so when the right person with Jason Levy, approached me and said, Hey, we want to start this thing. Jason and I sat down and said that this is this. This right now is exactly what we need at this time in our lives, right? And we didn’t have the vision then for what it has become today. The vision that was in front of us right then was, how can we help Dylan, workers, business, Rand along the way, we’re going to become be fresh doing this, and then, oh my gosh, now we have this opportunity with this nonprofit and latching on to that, I would definitely encourage young people today that are starting out to find that, find that nonprofit cause. It gives you purpose and drive and excitement, right? And if cancer is it great, if you know, saving a plan. In a different way, is it, however, that may be find that thing that’s going to give you that additional drive and purpose, that that you have to look forward to right, and that you can build relationships around him. You can build your business around right? You could. You can build client relationships on that, just as much as,

Brad Weimert 1:20:14
for instance, my purpose is to get the world to live in an honest way of life that allowed to reject AI entire lineage, and just didn’t know that about you. Go back to humanity.

Speaker 3 1:20:24
That’s great. Okay, cool, yeah, and read the cover the phone. That’s us,

Unknown Speaker 1:20:29
absolute opposite of that, actually, no, it is

Corey Lilburn 1:20:32
kind of a beautiful notion. It’s a beautiful notion. It’s hard put your pragmatic hat on. I think that’s probably hard for most of us. Have already gone down. It’s High God. You go, yeah, do Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:42
What advice do you have for a 25 year old entrepreneur

Corey Lilburn 1:20:45
starting out grind, grind like your tomorrow depends up, right? I think what you and I did at business, and you, more than anybody that I know, is don’t let any obstacles and distractions get in the way of the vision that you have of success, right? And so there are so many opportunities for distractions at 25 years old, right? I mean, we think about what I did, I don’t think I still knew what I wanted to be when I was 25 years old, I was still figuring out dating life, and you’re still figuring out every aspect of life in general. But I think if you, I think if you remember that getting up each day and grinding. That’s your purpose. I think that that will lead to success is putting one foot in front of the other. My my boss at the time I was 25 I just started with a flat and he said, If you’ll meet me every morning, seven o’clock on Fourth Street in St Pete, we’re going to we’re going to beat the streets up and down the street. We’re going to walk in the doors, introduce ourselves. If you do that every single day, five days a week will be for one month. I will help launch your career. And I thought, You know what? Every single day for one month, we did that, and it absolutely works. My career, same time every day, seven o’clock, beating it and and that level of grind. I think if, if a young person still himself with so many distractions out there with what’s going on the news, what’s going on with AI. How can I grab this to help it pack my business? Just put your head down and work right? Do we need to do to put food on the table and eventually that that culmination is going to lead a success career?

Brad Weimert 1:22:15
What’s a belief that you had throughout your journey that is different now or has changed.

Corey Lilburn 1:22:23
I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you belief that is important to remind myself of you quoted Charlie Munger earlier. Emma’s quoting is accurate to paraphrase that. Hey, I believe this is a quote from Emerson, who said, Every man I meet is my superior in subway. And I think if you think about the journey that we have in sales, we want to talk about big timing one another when we were young in our business, and trying to show that we were successful then and all this knows BS, because we were still building our careers Well, eventually you start to get good at something, and you string together a few home runs that you start to buy into your own hype reel. And I think ever since saying something so humbly is important for me to instill in my own kids, so that they understand that you’re good, but there’s, there’s always somebody better at something, right? And so I think that has been important to throughout the career, to come back and go all right, I had a good year, but this person did it better. This person is smart. This person’s got better podcast, better haircut, whatever the case may be, I think really figuring that out and reminding ourselves about is good.

Brad Weimert 1:23:36
I love that. I mean what? What I’ve already what I got out of that was when I want to be dismissed about somebody and critique them for not understanding, not knowing, not processing. It’s important to remember that they’re better than me at something,

Corey Lilburn 1:23:53
something absolutely yeah, and that’s, that’s a that’s important message for my kids to hear and to understand, right? And so I helped out take that away from this segment. Let’s be the voice and

Brad Weimert 1:24:05
the rest. We’ll delete the rest of her. Gloria, little Berg, it’s been, it’s always awesome. We’re gonna have lots of lots of fun times in the upcoming week for my my transition.

Corey Lilburn 1:24:17
Oh, transition already live. Okay, all right, always supportive of you, my friend.

Brad Weimert 1:24:24
Where, where can people find out more about you

Corey Lilburn 1:24:27
through LinkedIn? So they click the good the LinkedIn link here, hopefully at some point in time, yep, and other that I sort of fly into the radar.

Brad Weimert 1:24:35
I love that. Man, Yeah, beautiful. I said grabbing out the tie Absolutely. All right, that’s a wrap for this episode. I’m supposed to tell you that you should subscribe to the show and you should leave a review. I really want you to leave a review, though, because it makes, like, a radical difference in the algorithm and getting other people to be able to see the show. So didn’t you please go leave a review. It’ll take you, like, 30 seconds. Also, if you want more episodes, go. Are amazing. You can check out the full length video versions at beyond a million.com, or youtube.com. Forward slash at beyond a million, you won’t regret it.